The trial of the century...That never happened

[diane]

Well, Sherman thought the entire planter class should have been deported. There were quite a few thought the same but he was the only one who said it out loud!

 

[Wehrkraftzersetzer]

Well, Sherman thought the entire planter class should have been deported. There were quite a few thought the same but he was the only one who said it out loud!

to where?

 

[diane]

The deep blue sea, for all he cared! I think he had Brazil or Central America - Nicaragua maybe - in mind.

 

[jgoodguy]

Another wrinkle about this is the conceit that a court could rule secession legal and result in an independent South.

Assuming if a court ruled secession legal, then the South would be conquered territory from a foreign nation. The Radical Republicans tried this approach to argue the conquered South had no rights even to the existence of State territory or representation in congress, it was just conquered territory. Davis would have to testify under oath that he gave the order for an independent nation to attack the US.

IMHO the 1861 secession was not Constitutional, but ending it by force was also not Constitutional. It was Davis ordering the attack on Fort Sumter that turned a cold war into a hot one that led to the destruction of the Confederacy.

 

[diane]

Lincoln was not assured that he was on the Constitution's path, either. He read it with the eye of a lawyer but he was left to his own best interpretation. That required things like not calling Congress to session for a while and a few other questionable things. I think Davis doth protest too much about firing on Ft Sumter - he took over from Pickens as he thought Pickens was going to start a war! That wouldn't do...a rogue governor doesn't make a statement for a country. Davis had to start the war! It was the only way to legitimatize a country formed by a congress that wasn't even supposed to exist. The representatives the people had elected went to Montgomery and rebelled against their own people by forming a government they didn't agree to form! If Davis had not, as you note, hotted up the war and remained a plausible 'victim', there might have been the support from abroad that he needed. Once he became the first belligerent, that fig leaf dropped.

 

[O' Be Joyful]

The deep blue sea, for all he cared! I think he had Brazil

Confederado-brazilville?

 

[diane]

NBF against a half blind former slave would be rigged

He did end up in court twice with the judge being Fielding Hurst.

 

[diane]

Confederado-brazilville?

There were a LOT gathering in Mexico - that was looking like a possible problem. JO Shelby took all his men there, Kirby-Smith went there with some, and they were hoping Forrest and his men would join them. It was fixing to be Pancho Villa in reverse!

 

[rittmeister]

He did end up in court twice with the judge being Fielding Hurst.

fielding who? it's nice to link here and there

 

[O' Be Joyful]

fielding who? it's nice to link here and there

As you have informed others in the past, Mr. gOOgle is your friend.

Hurst, Fielding | Tennessee Encyclopedia

Fielding Hurst, a staunch southern Unionist during the Civil War, […]

tennesseeencyclopedia.net

 

[jgoodguy]

There were a LOT gathering in Mexico - that was looking like a possible problem. JO Shelby took all his men there, Kirby-Smith went there with some, and they were hoping Forrest and his men would join them. It was fixing to be Pancho Villa in reverse!

That would be an interesting What If. I am pessimistic about a batch of slave owners without slaves doing much in an anti slaveholding Hispanic country which would be suspicious of a bunch of armed Anglos whose forefathers stole Texas from them.

 

[rittmeister]

That would be an interesting What If. I am pessimistic about a batch of slave owners without slaves doing much in an anti slaveholding country who would be suspicious of a bunch of armed Anglos.

sounds like the federales get to investigate a murder spree targeting foreigners

 

[diane]

That would be an interesting What If. I am pessimistic about a batch of slave owners without slaves doing much in an anti slaveholding Hispanic country which would be suspicious of a bunch of armed Anglos whose forefathers stole Texas from them.

Forrest was encouraged to make a run for the border but then decided he would go fishing instead. (He told his staff he wanted to find a remote creek and with any luck not see another person for at least a year! Just a little bit tired of the whole human race by then...) However, Forrest always had ideas - he thought Maximilian was wobbly enough to push over and that 30,000 combat veterans were available to do the job. The option of continuing to fight in the Trans-Mississippi allowed Lincoln and Grant to pursue them into the territories but they'd have a few second thinks in crossing the Mexican border. Well...then Forrest put down the pipe with the wacky tabacky and went on back to Memphis!

 

[jgoodguy]

However, Forrest always had ideas - he thought Maximilian was wobbly enough to push over and that 30,000 combat veterans were available to do the job. The option of continuing to fight in the Trans-Mississippi allowed Lincoln and Grant to pursue them into the territories but they'd have a few second thinks in crossing the Mexican border. Well...then Forrest put down the pipe with the wacky tabacky and went on back to Memphis!

Maximilian was wobbly, but also supported by the French, English, and Spain. Not a good party to upset. Then there is the little matter of paying, equipping and motivating 30,000 war-weary veterans. Finally, they would be caught between Juárez and the Republican Mexican Government, and The US military invited in to clean up their mess.

 

[diane]

Maximilian was wobbly, but also supported by the French, English, and Spain. Not a good party to upset. Then there is the little matter of paying, equipping and motivating 30,000 war-weary veterans. Finally, they would be caught between Juárez and the Republican Mexican Government, and The US military invited in to clean up their mess.

Yes indeed! Taking over Mexico in the name of the Confederacy was not at all an easy matter. Forrest speculated he could do it with one of his signature lightning strikes and establish himself as president before the coup news hit Europe. Fortunately he was also practical and realistic...naw, much better to go to Memphis and, well, do what he did! One thing, too - the Mexicans themselves were no pushovers. He would find an aristocratic class very similar to the Southern aristocrats, and with attitude. JO Shelby was also in Mexico with his hard-core vets - he was hoping to coordinate with Forrest and his die-hards. Now that would have been an interesting scenario! (Brief...but interesting!)

 

[O' Be Joyful]

That would be an interesting What If. I am pessimistic about a batch of slave owners without slaves doing much in an anti slaveholding Hispanic country which would be suspicious of a bunch of armed Anglos whose forefathers stole Texas from them.

Tee-hee...

 

[O' Be Joyful]

Tee-hee...

But that was from when I was a child.

I have learned better and have become wiser since. Sometimes with age, comes wisdom.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[jgoodguy]

But that was from when I was a child.

I have learned better and have become wiser since. Sometimes with age, comes wisdom.

Your mileage may vary.

Mileage matters

 

[O' Be Joyful]

Mileage matters

I should buy one of those auto warranty thing-es.

 

[jgoodguy]

Yes indeed! Taking over Mexico in the name of the Confederacy was not at all an easy matter. Forrest speculated he could do it with one of his signature lightning strikes and establish himself as president before the coup news hit Europe. Fortunately he was also practical and realistic...naw, much better to go to Memphis and, well, do what he did! One thing, too - the Mexicans themselves were no pushovers. He would find an aristocratic class very similar to the Southern aristocrats, and with attitude. JO Shelby was also in Mexico with his hard-core vets - he was hoping to coordinate with Forrest and his die-hards. Now that would have been an interesting scenario! (Brief...but interesting!)

I agree.
This is a sacred French Foreign Legion artifact from Mexico.


The Battle of Camarón
Main article: Battle of Camarón
At 1 a.m. on 30 April, the 3rd company was on its way, with three officers and 62 men. At 7 a.m., after a 15 miles (24 km) march, it stopped at Palo Verde to rest. Soon after, a Mexican force of 3,000 soldiers (800 cavalry and 2,200 infantry) was spotted. Danjou had the company take up a square formation and, even though retreating, he drove back several cavalry charges, inflicting the first heavy losses on the enemy.

Looking for a more defensible position, Danjou decided to make a stand at the nearby Hacienda Camarón, an inn protected by a 10-foot (3-meter) high wall. His plan was to tie up the enemy forces to prevent any attacks on the nearby convoy. While the legionnaires prepared a defense of the inn, the Mexican commander, Colonel Milan, demanded that Danjou and his men surrender, pointing out the fact that the Mexican Army was greatly superior in number. Danjou went around to each of his men with a bottle of wine and made them all take a solemn oath not to surrender.

At noon, Danjou was shot in the chest and died. His soldiers continued to fight until 6 p.m. despite overwhelming odds and extreme heat. The 60 men, who had had nothing to eat or drink since the day before, resisted many charges of the Mexican army. The last five survivors were all down to their very last bullet. Instead of dishonoring themselves, they decided to charge with fixed bayonets. When they did, the Mexican commander ordered his troops to cease fire. Out of admiration for their courage, he spared the surviving men and allowed them to form an honour guard for the body of Captaine Danjou. They were released to return to France. This story has become legendary in French military history.

Danjou was buried on 3 May 1863 in Camarón.

After the battle, a Mexican named Ramirez discovered and took Danjou's wooden hand. Ramirez was soon arrested and the hand retrieved by Lieutenant Karl Grübert of the Austrian army, which replaced the Foreign Legion in this conflict on 17 July 1865. Today, Danjou's wooden hand is paraded annually on April 30, Camerone Day.