Union statues in the Southwest also honor the war against Native Americans

[5fish]

My comment is to be careful about what you wish for.

I do want to point out SCOTUS just gave back half of Oklahoma the Indian tribes by a 5-4 ruling... It maybe coming...

 

[jgoodguy]

I do want to point out SCOTUS just gave back half of Oklahoma the Indian tribes by a 5-4 ruling... It maybe coming...

I wonder who will take in the refugees from the Indian reoccupation.

 

[diane]

Well, 5fish, you know what Andy told SCOTUS to do after they decided his Indian removal wasn't legal. After they dutifully scrutinized his middle finger all they could do was drum their fingers on the Constitution. There's a little item in the treaties - all of them - that unused federal land goes back to the tribes (which was what the Alcatraz occupation was all about) but when Clinton closed all the military bases I didn't see any tagged for return to the tribes it was taken from. But it's not like they won't do that - they offered my tribe some of our land back and it was literally a pile of rocks. Dredger tailings! It was deja vu for us - the rancheria was a pile of rocks, too. A knob of granite on a mountain top far, far away! No water, no timber, no dirt...

 

[IcarusPhoenix]

I do want to point out SCOTUS just gave back half of Oklahoma the Indian tribes by a 5-4 ruling... It maybe coming...

I wonder who will take in the refugees from the Indian reoccupation.

It's worth noting that under the laws of the US, the tribes almost always win in court. Ultimately, it means absolutely nothing. To give a very local example, Sandia Pueblo (Tuf Shur Tia) has won multiple court cases over the course of decades against the state of New Mexico, the city of Albuquerque, and private developers declaring that the western slopes and foothills of the Sandia Mountains (and, often more importantly, the consequent water rights) are rightfully theirs. Not one bit of land has ever been transferred back to the pueblo.

As cool as it is to think of the enitire cesspit of Tulsa being the property of the Creek, the ultimate effect of the ruling will probably be approximately nothing at all.

 

[Joshism]

The Carlisle "Indian School" is a good example of whites trying to force Native American kids to assimilate into white culture. They had to dress "white" and wear their hair in the styles of white folks and speak only English - no native tongues were permitted - and learn from "white" text books.

I always liked the conversation with the Mohawk chief and a preacher back a couple hundred years ago. The preacher said he'd take a dozen of the braves and educate them at Dartmouth. The chief said well, we already did that. They came back no good for nothing! Didn't know their language, customs, how to hunt, how to fight. Now, you give us a dozen of your boys and we'll hand you back some men!

While the degree to which it was done was wrong, the basic premise was not entirely offbase. Not the attempt to destroy the culture, but that native lifestyle had to change and adapt. The low density land use by many tribes wasn't sustainable in the face of white population growth. Even if every acre was sold at a fair price, sooner or later most of those acres would be sold. (Of course, establishing which tribe owned a particular piece of land could be its own challenge.)

I know a lot of people adore accents, but I don't becauae they are a hindrance to communication. To be understood is one of the most important things in life. I would love a world where when I picked up the phone it was impossible to determine the ethnicity of the person on the other end from their voice alone.

We Americans know know and have the recorded history of us taking lands from Native Americans should we not vacate many of these places and return them to Native Americans. Its time to plan on returning native American lands or pay for it and you thought reparation had a price tag...

Vacate the lands to whom?

For example, the US paid Spain for ownership of Florida and it came with the Seminoles. The Seminoles had been Florida residents for less than a century before being forced west. The inhabitants of 1492 were wiped out, in part by English-allied Creeks when Florida was Spanish. And some of the Seminoles were late arrivals from the Creeks following the Creek War of 1812-1814.

Is Virginia safe because the Powhatan were wiped out? Who would get Kentucky which was neutral hunting ground?

 

[jgoodguy]

While the degree to which it was done was wrong, the basic premise was not entirely offbase. Not the attempt to destroy the culture, but that native lifestyle had to change and adapt. The low density land use by many tribes wasn't sustainable in the face of white population growth. Even if every acre was sold at a fair price, sooner or later most of those acres would be sold. (Of course, establishing which tribe owned a particular piece of land could be its own challenge.)

I know a lot of people adore accents, but I don't becauae they are a hindrance to communication. To be understood is one of the most important things in life. I would love a world where when I picked up the phone it was impossible to determine the ethnicity of the person on the other end from their voice alone.



Vacate the lands to whom?

For example, the US paid Spain for ownership of Florida and it came with the Seminoles. The Seminoles had been Florida residents for less than a century before being forced west. The inhabitants of 1492 were wiped out, in part by English-allied Creeks when Florida was Spanish. And some of the Seminoles were late arrivals from the Creeks following the Creek War of 1812-1814.

Is Virginia safe because the Powhatan were wiped out? Who would get Kentucky which was neutral hunting ground?

The quicksand of history. Efficiency seems to wipe out the traditional. OTOH we end up with hard tasteless tomatoes.

 

[Jim Klag]

The low density land use by many tribes wasn't sustainable in the face of white population growth

You seem to be stuck in that 19th century mode of thinking that all Indian land was subject to the needs or wants of the white population. How would you feel if some outside group moved into the good old USA just because they wanted it and had better weapons than you? It was their land pure and simple - let them work out which tribe owns which acreage.

 

[rittmeister]

I know a lot of people adore accents, but I don't becauae they are a hindrance to communication. To be understood is one of the most important things in life. I would love a world where when I picked up the phone it was impossible to determine the ethnicity of the person on the other end from their voice alone.

let me guess, everybody is supossed to speak exactly liked you?

 

[jgoodguy]

let me guess, everybody is supossed to speak exactly liked you?

As long as it is English.

Never the less, a common language helps with communication.

 

[jgoodguy]

You seem to be stuck in that 19th century mode of thinking that all Indian land was subject to the needs or wants of the white population. How would you feel if some outside group moved into the good old USA just because they wanted it and had better weapons than you? It was their land pure and simple - let them work out which tribe owns which acreage.

Do they have land deeds and maps?

 

[rittmeister]

As long as it is English.

Never the less, a common language helps with communication.

it does - i wonder why it's always the language of the dudes rolling in heavily armed? let's try esparanto.

 

[Jim Klag]

it does - i wonder why it's always the language of the dudes rolling in heavily armed? let's try esparanto.

Or Ladino. Maybe just universal sign language - have to have video phones for that one.

 

[Jim Klag]

Do they have land deeds and maps?

In the pre-Colombian Indian world they didn't need them. Only us non-Indians seem to need a piece of paper to tell us which land is ours.

 

[rittmeister]

Or Ladino. Maybe just universal sign language - have to have video phones for that one.

won't work - they got dialects. french signing depicts german with an upride index finger of the right hand above the head (pickelhaube!)

 

[jgoodguy]

it does - i wonder why it's always the language of the dudes rolling in heavily armed? let's try esparanto.

The old universal language was Latin, which followed the Roman armies. Or Chinese much the same.

 

[jgoodguy]

In the pre-Colombian Indian world they didn't need them. Only us non-Indians seem to need a piece of paper to tell us which land is ours.

Trust is an issue. Also many tribes were migratory. In merry old England, the commons were divided up and deeded forcing peasants into the Hell of the industrial revolution.

 

[diane]

Actually, land ownership is about who gets to eat! Very basically. Northern California was a very crowded place, lots of small bands and mini-tribes - it was also the refrigerator. Very complex negotiations had to be made and it wasn't as clear as a line, or a fence. That was a peculiar concept to most up here. Because so many different people lived shoulder to shoulder in a mountainous area, warfare wasn't the best way to settle matters. You could wipe out your neighbor and eat his dinner but it was much better to marry his daughter and get access to the kitchen. That is why this neck of the woods has treaty problems up the wazoo - there was no clear territory that a single tribe owned. The arrangement, sometimes after a push-shove fight, was this is my fishing hole but you can use it when I'm done, or this is my salt lick but you can hunt here after I've gotten some meat. Which was not something Reddick McKee understood when he was doing his classic film "Fist Full of Treaties" to get tribes to sign off (or up) on land to prevent Mexicans, Californios and Spaniards from disputing the outcome of the Mexican War. So...getting your land back is much more complicated even if it was land nobody was on. I suppose the Ohlone and Miwoks will get San Francisco back about the time the Powhatans get Richmond back. (But it would be nice if they became the landlord!)

Aw, now I like accents! My Sandlapper granny: Y'all wont ta pious the braid down yar? I couldn't understand her...but I couldn't understand English anyway!

 

[diane]

By the way - think it fits the topic - the Washington Redskins decided to retire their name. Well, dang. What do I wear to the powwow now... The Indian on there was designed by an Indian some years ago - it's not like none of us knew about it until somebody else yelled. Or the princess on Land o Lakes butter - just a sad empty field now. But that sends a worse message - we got rid of the Indian but kept the land!

 

[Jim Klag]

By the way - think it fits the topic - the Washington Redskins decided to retire their name. Well, dang. What do I wear to the powwow now... The Indian on there was designed by an Indian some years ago - it's not like none of us knew about it until somebody else yelled. Or the princess on Land o Lakes butter - just a sad empty field now. But that sends a worse message - we got rid of the Indian but kept the land!

The Braves in Atlanta have decided to keep their name. They have, in the past, worked with Native American advisors on eliminating some of the cartoonish human imagery and kept only the tomahawk as their logo. They will probably have to get rid of the silly tomahawk chop bullshit but that's about all that their Indian advisors want to cut out.

 

[diane]

What's interesting there, Jim, is only a few years ago - don't think it was even 5 - some judge dismissed the name change case citing there weren't enough people to be offended. I'm not exactly sure if we had a population explosion or what changed - there's suddenly enough people offended. Sump'in don't smell right around here....

Guess I'll have to hide my Chief Wahoo collection.