penal units in world war II and other wars

[rittmeister]

It certainly made sense for the French to use coercion to get needed volunteers to Indo-China. Some SS volunteers jumped ship while going through the Suez Canal.
Keep in mind not everything in history gets recorded right away I.e. American troops killing German or non German Wehrmacht at D Day or all of the US and South Korean Army massacres in Vietnam.
Kirk's Raider's

that's the problem. there was no need to coerce anyone. the foreign legion was an easy way out: new name - new passport - new life. and all for only five years of fighting what was supossed to be a far inferior enemy. it was a bargain.

 

[5fish]

Army massacres in Vietnam.

Here is a site that tells of the FFL recruiting form German pows...


http://ww2f.com/threads/german-sold...h-foreign-legion-to-fight-in-indochina.39891/

there's also a concept to not use

It were Germans the made most of the FFL in Indo-China in the 1950s... The world was shocked when the Vietnamese defeated the FFL...

 

[5fish]

I tried to find detail on the FFL recruitment of German POWS but could not find numbers... .

https://seacomberlin.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/germans-in-the-first-indochina-war/comment-page-1/

By late 1946 the French had 50,000 troops in Vietnam and had regained control of Saigon. During this conflict, the French Foreign Legion saw its numbers swell due to the incorporation of Second World War veterans who couldn’t adapt to civilian life, as well as German prisoners of war.

But despite the strong cohesion of the Legion, a small number of Germans did desert the French to join the Viet Minh and two former German Legionnaires even became top officials in the Viet Minh's propaganda and intelligence services.

Here is a story about the Germans trying to take over the FFL before the war... and how the French delt with it...

https://www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-a-tale-of-the-french-foreign-legion.htm

Still the Germans kept joining–until half the privates and 80 percent of the noncommissioned officers in the Legion were German. Eventually, it became evident that this influx had been orchestrated by German intelligence, the Abwehr, to destroy the Legion from within. The new German legionnaires came close to achieving the Abwehr‘s objective.

Here is a fear FFL was kidnapping young Germans...

https://www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-a-tale-of-the-french-foreign-legion.htm

Here got the last paragraph about FFL Germans in WW2 in North Africa... techily a penal unit?

https://books.google.com/books?id=GYjVTqWwLTkC&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=german+pows+enlist+in+the+french+foreign+league&source=bl&ots=JOhw5k64Av&sig=ACfU3U2w-tfszkP9LgNWtCzEyuYY455I0Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjo7_mfkNjlAhUBd6wKHcD8D184ChDoATAEegQIBRAB#v=onepage&q=german pows enlist in the french foreign league&f=false

WW2 scandal French used German POWS for mine-clearing... and the Danes too... it pretty clear even the Brits did it... being a German soldier after the war was tough I keep seeing their horror stories...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scandal-of-pows-sent-to-deaths-on-minefields-1620692.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scandal-of-pows-sent-to-deaths-on-minefields-1620692.html

http://www.exulanten.com/powsmines.html

 

[5fish]

I found this site: http://www.revisionist.net/german-pows.html

An interesting footnote: After the war, many German combat veterans joined the French Foreign Legion, some recruited directly from POW camps. Others were men who had no home to return to. Highly regarded by the French for their discipline and bravery, up to 70% of the French Foreign legion after 1945 consisted of former German soldiers. The Germans maintained their own sergeants and spoke German almost exclusively. From 1945-1954 the Legion Etrangere recruited 30,000-35,000 Germans. During the 1st Indochina War c. 40-50% of the LE personnel in South-Eastern Asia were Germans and among the last 7,000 soldiers that left Vietnam in 1954 after the peace treaty, 1,600 were German.

 

[rittmeister]

I found this site: http://www.revisionist.net/german-pows.html

An interesting footnote: After the war, many German combat veterans joined the French Foreign Legion, some recruited directly from POW camps. Others were men who had no home to return to. Highly regarded by the French for their discipline and bravery, up to 70% of the French Foreign legion after 1945 consisted of former German soldiers. The Germans maintained their own sergeants and spoke German almost exclusively. From 1945-1954 the Legion Etrangere recruited 30,000-35,000 Germans. During the 1st Indochina War c. 40-50% of the LE personnel in South-Eastern Asia were Germans and among the last 7,000 soldiers that left Vietnam in 1954 after the peace treaty, 1,600 were German.

you want to introduce a side run by simon sheppard? really?

... i shall advise a freight train of salt

 

[5fish]

you want to introduce a side run by simon sheppard? really?

... i shall advise a freight train of salt

I claim ignorance about far right groups and leaders in Europe for I only know a few.

I was trying to find answers to my questions about German pows after WW2...

I was looking for numbers he had some... The far right does tale half truths once in a while...

 

[rittmeister]

I claim ignorance about far right groups and leaders in Europe for I only know a few.

I was trying to find answers to my questions about German pows after WW2...

I was looking for numbers he had some... The far right does tale half truths once in a while...

nobody expects an american to know those. he probably wouldn't be recognized by many europeans either. if everybody knows 'where' info comes from they can value said info for themselves.

... and yes, once in a while they do.

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

Here is a site that tells of the FFL recruiting form German pows...


http://ww2f.com/threads/german-sold...h-foreign-legion-to-fight-in-indochina.39891/



It were Germans the made most of the FFL in Indo-China in the 1950s... The world was shocked when the Vietnamese defeated the FFL...

Per the undocumented thread cited the French resorted to threatening German SS POWs with death if they didn't volunteer for the FFL. That may or may not be true. It' s certainly plausible that the mere threat of transferring a German SS POW to the Soviets would of been a powerful recruitment tool. If I find the source I will let you know but it would not be surprising if true.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

I claim ignorance about far right groups and leaders in Europe for I only know a few.

I was trying to find answers to my questions about German pows after WW2...

I was looking for numbers he had some... The far right does tale half truths once in a while...

The biography "Erick Hartman the blond night of Germany" goes into detail about Erick Hartman who was easily the top scoring ace of WW2 and his post war experiences as basically a Soviet slave.
Hartman shot down something like 320 enemy aircraft mostly Soviet but some American aircraft including Mustangs.
The Soviets post war had tens of thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of Italian and German prisoners.
Sometime in the late 1940s until 1956 the Soviets in essence sold the Pows back to West Germany and Italy.
Most but not all of the Pows were held in Siberia in what the Soviets referred to as the "Taiga" or Tundra. There were no fences because if a Pow ran away where would he run to? There is no cover and not much of anything to eat even in the summer. A Soviet light aircraft could almost instantly find an escaped Pow.
One U boat Captain was in charge of a lumber crew in some remote mountain range. They didn't have guards because where would they run to? The Germans didn't speak the native language and aren't the same race as the locals. Unlike Hartman the U Boat Captain wasn't mistreated. Not to say he wouldn't rather be in then West Germany with his family but not much he could do about it until he was repatriated or ransomed by the West German Government by the early 1950s.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

I claim ignorance about far right groups and leaders in Europe for I only know a few.

I was trying to find answers to my questions about German pows after WW2...

I was looking for numbers he had some... The far right does tale half truths once in a while...

How many German POWs died in the Soviet Union from say 1941 to 1956 would be difficult to say. If the Soviets never allowed a Pow mail then said Pow basically fell of the end of the earth.Said Pow is simply missing in action. Hartman was able to get some mail via the Red Cross.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

@5fish Another kind of Penal Battalion so to speak is captured guerrillas.
For example in Portuguese Mozambique a professional hunter Danial Roxo who became a Portuguese Army officer formed " the infernal column" of approximately one hundred turned former FREMILO guerrillas who would impersonate and track down their former comrades.
There is a picture of Roxo with his troops and the caption states that they wore enemy uniforms and carried Soviet arms.
Actually the picture shows his troops in standard Portuguese Army camouflage with standard at the time German HK G-3 rifles which the Portuguese made under license.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

@5fish,
The British during the Kenyan Emergency or Mau Mau insurgency of 1953 to 1960 would convert some former Mau Mau insurgents into"counter-gangs " which basically did what the Union Army did in Missouri in terms of impersonating guerrillas to gage popular support and infiltrate the Mau Mau.
The Portuguese Secret Police used the same concept in their "Fletchas" or arrow program.
The Rhodesians did the same program more or less with the Selous Scouts.
I would not argue the Counter Gangs,the Fletchas, and the Selous Scouts were exactly the same but they all used captured and turned guerrillas.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[rittmeister]

"Erick Hartman the blond night of Germany"

the name's erich hartmann

 

[rittmeister]

How many German POWs died in the Soviet Union from say 1941 to 1956 would be difficult to say. If the Soviets never allowed a Pow mail then said Pow basically fell of the end of the earth.Said Pow is simply missing in action. Hartman was able to get some mail via the Red Cross.
Kirk's Raider's

he was back home in octobre 1955

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

@5fish ,
The British Army was able to convert a few captured IRA ,INLA , and Protestant terrorists such as UFF into armed infiltrators that may have fired on their former comrades. The British Army unit "Force Reconnaissance Unit" was definitely successful in getting members of both Catholic and Protestant terrorists to become informers. A dangerous business and betrayal not unknown.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

he was back home in octobre 1955

I seem to recall some unlucky bastards had to wait until 1956.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

@5fish ,
There was a book in the Time-Life series on WW2 this one dealing with the occupied countries that the German Army was recruiting French soldiers from Pow Camps by 1941. I forgot how many were actually recruited.
Kirk's Raider's

 

[rittmeister]

I seem to recall some unlucky bastards had to wait until 1956.
Kirk's Raider's

i don't - they were all back in '55

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

@5fish ,
The Wikipedia article on SS Charlemagne states that some French POWs were recruited in the Legion against Bolshivism". This unit took heavy casualties in 1941 and then was used as counterinsurgency troops in the Soviet Union.
Not sure how many of the survivors made it into SS Charlemagne founded in February 1945 .
Kirk's Raider's

 

[5fish]

How many German POWs died in the Soviet Union from say 1941 to 1956 would be difficult to say.

From wiki... 1 million...

The West German government set up a Commission headed by Erich Maschke to investigate the fate of German POWs in the war. In its report of 1974 they found that 3,060,000 German military personnel were taken prisoner by the USSR[20] and that 1,094,250 died in captivity (549,360 from 1941 to April 1945; 542,911 from May 1945 to June 1950 and 1,979 from July 1950 to 1955).[21] According to German historian Rüdiger Overmans ca. 3,000,000 POW were taken by the USSR; he put the "maximum" number of German POW deaths in Soviet hands at 1.0 million.[5] Based on his research, Overmans believes that the deaths of 363,000 POWs in Soviet captivity can be confirmed by the files of Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt), and additionally maintains that "It seems entirely plausible, while not provable, that 700,000 German military personnel listed as missing actually died in Soviet custody".[4]