The Vague and Ambiguous US Constitution

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from: The Vague and Ambiguous US Constitution

Reminds me of piles of dueling quotes from founding fathers sometimes dueling themselves that show up here in secession and politics. We got here not because of some golden pathway shining thought the ticket of possibilities, but by fumbling the way forward and a dose of luck.

We know from documents and writings of the time that the founders didn’t agree on the Constitution before, during, and after it was written. They couldn’t even agree on whether it should be written, with many fighting against it on principle. The debates were harsh and sometimes violent, nearly tearing the country apart before it had been fully established.

Others only agreed to the Constitution if a Bill of Rights were to be added, while others resisted a Bill of Rights for the very reason they were seen as too specific. It should be noted that the Bill of Rights, the most detailed part of the Constitution, was only added later (ratified years after the Constitution) and was the most strongly contested part. Yet, it too has problems, as Leonard W. Levy explained (Original Intent and the Framers’ Constitution, p. 340): “Even the seemingly specific injunctions and provisions of the Bill of Rights are vague, requiring much interpretation.”
About the author.

For all my pessimistic realism and seeming cynicism, I’m deep down in my soul an idealist. What we say and do matters. On this radical path, One might call me an anarchist and agnostic, in that I’m virulently opposed to false idols, false gods, and false powers. I’m a fierce defender of the truth, as I know it.
 

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WJC said:
Thanks for the link and excerpt.
From what I have read, the members of the Constitutional Convention realized that their product was far from perfect but agreed- some reluctantly- to submit it to the people 'as is' to be ratified or rejected without change. Some were doubtful that it would be ratified. Indeed, had Pennsylvania voted before Delaware's unanimous ratification, they might have rejected it!
As we know, afterwards Congress considered twelve amendments of which ten were ratified forming what became known at the time of the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment as the Bill of Rights.
Another article says the Bill of Rights was the price of Union and the 13th,14th and 15th were the real peace treaty ending the Civil War. Interesting thoughts.
 

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Greywolf said:
Imo the vagueness was intentional and probably a good thing and I think to many specifics would not fly. As mentioned even getting a bill of rights was challenging. Being vague here actually adds more liberty.
I agree. Liberties that would not be recognized by the founding fathers, voting rights for women, for example, are accruing. The vagueness allows it to be reinterpreted as needed.

Looking at it, one can see what the Southerners were upset about at secession, things changed and they felt the Union they signed on to had changed. IMHO a conflict between Social Compact where one can bail if needed and Democracy where bailing is not allowed. There was no single path forward to nationalist nirvana but lots of trial and error(despite all those SCOTUS decisions).
 

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The Vague and Ambiguous US Constitution Jefferson Davis and Abraham Lincoln had to very different takes on the DOI.

This kind of mixing and sometimes inconsistency was simply par for the course. Even in the Declaration of Independence was intentionally vague. It was an inspirational document of solidarity, not a clear explication of specific principles. Some interpret it as espousing natural law and natural rights, even though there is strong evidence that Thomas Jefferson didn’t support this view. Also, Dickinson’s Quaker influence was in opposition to natural law. But it is true that other founders did believe in it, and hence the need for unclear language that could be interpreted variously.[/center]
So the founding fathers were wishy-washy. I cannot argue with success, but not exactly a great patriotic slogan. By being vague, everyone thought it meant what they wanted it to mean. The cause of the Civil Was both sides thought they had the correct interpretation?

None of this should be surprising. The colonists didn’t just come from different colonies, some from the coastal cities and others from the frontier. Among those who weren’t colonial born, many came from a diversity of countries and from culturally distinct regions of the same countries. The colonial population, including the founders, included a diversity of ethnicity, religion, and political traditions (consider the mixed ideas of freedom and liberty). Without ambiguity and equivocation in the founding texts, it’s unlikely independence would have been won, a constitution agreed upon, and a functioning government instituted.[/center]
Between Congress, Courts and amendments, the bubblegum and baling wire of the Constitution, the whole contraption keeps on ticking.
The Constitution was seen as a compromise, a temporary truce in the debate. The Founders decided to intentionally keep the wording at a surface level, for anything deeper would have led to irresolvable conflict. Many of them figured that either it would be revised later on or that maybe an entirely new constitution would take its place. Benajmin Franklin, for example, thought it would only last for a decade. Jefferson was a bit more extreme in that he thought not just new constitutions but new revolutions would be necessary.[/center]​
 

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Rusk County Avengers said:
Well let me reconstitute my argument, how about the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions.

In their opposition to the Alien and Sedition acts Thomas Jefferson and James Madison argued that States have the authority to nullify unconstitutional laws, and most of the other Founders said it was a matter for the courts, with some were vehemently opposed, (if I remember right Alexander Hamilton advocated sending the Army into Virginia), and these arguments were between the Founders themselves. Compact theory or not, the Constitution because of its vagueness was really on both sides depending on who on what side was cherry-picking to back up their arguments:

Federalists- Executive branch and Congress had the authority to protect the Nation's borders and integrity

Democrat-Republicans- The central government didn't have the authority to, in their eyes, violate the First Amendment, and through the 10th Amendment those powers had not been delegated to the central government and the States had the authority to reel it in.

I know I'm really oversimplifying what happened, but when looked at, the Constitution wasn't on one side, but was on both sides, and the Founders themselves were arguing. I know the "Compact Theory" raises its head here as well, but ignoring it, the language of the Constitution backs up both sides in its vagueness. That's the point I was tying to get across, the Founders themselves couldn't agree on the weather half the time, so the vagueness was the result, it try's to keep everyone happy, and in the eyes of the Founders I bet it kept America from sliding back into absolutism of the days under the King of England, I think that may have been part of the plan they had.

(But let us not forget there was folks like Patrick Henry who hated the Constitution period....)
I personally believe that faced with extinction of their nation they put together something that worked, the highest level level of quality. Works trumpts perfection.
 

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wausaubob said:
The question always remained: how much democracy do we really want? The Constitution had less than the Confederation. The Bill of Rights added some democracy back in. Jacksonian Democracy added even more, with lots of local banks and private currency. By the time of the Civil War a continental empire was unfolding. Could that be a democratic republic, or would one man rule be inevitable?
The people will decide.
 

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Copperhead-mi said:
On September 17, 1787, the last day of the Convention, a number of delegates were missing or refused to sign in agreement with the draft of the Constitution to be presented to the public in spite of a plea from Benjamin Franklin who stated that he did not agree with several parts of the Constitution and probably would never agree to them but was still going to sign in approval as others who are in disagreement should do. The Convention created a facade of unanimity among the states to circumvent the fact that some delegates would not sign in agreement or in the case of New York, had only one delegate present who could not sign approval for his state, by introducing the signature page with "done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independance of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names..."
The Delegates Who Didn't Sign the U.S. Constitution. In all, 70 delegates were appointed to the Constitutional Convention, but out of that 70 only 55 attended, and only 39 actually signed. ... Also, John Dickinson who is officially listed as a "signer," didn't sign the Constitution himself.
Those Who Didn't Sign - Constitution Day Materials, US Constitution ...
 

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Andersonh1 said:
Interesting thread. The ambiguity is certainly there, and it's been both a blessing and a curse at different times. Perhaps a few more things could have been explicitly spelled out and saved us all a lot of trouble, but who knows that we wouldn't have just had different troubles.
I like to hang out with the nationalists, but sometimes I think they think history is more definite and concrete in their favor than it is. I do not know of any nation that had slavery so ingrained in it as the US and some much less than did not have violence to end it. An interesting thread to speculate on for sure. but that happened over several types of governments so I am not sure much would change.

There were a lot of civil wars in the 19th century about nationalism and it is possible that the US would have had one also. There are some that view the Civil War as a war of nationalism and there is some credence to that because, without a Northern sense of nation, there would have been no reason to fight.
 

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[url=https://civilwartalk.com/goto/post?id=1981251]huskerblitz said:[/url]
Depends on how far back you want to go. I've seen estimates that almost half of Rome's population toward its end was slaves. Now we could argue that the type of slavery was different, but I think slavery in and of itself was more ingrained in ancient cultures than the US, where it was more regionally based. If you restrict it to the modern era then you may be correct.
19th century maybe include the French revolution.
[url=https://civilwartalk.com/goto/post?id=1981251]huskerblitz said:[/url]
As far as the vagueness of the document, as @Andersonh1 says it was a blessing and a curse and both at the same time depending on your political stance. But the fact it was vague has allowed it to expand and remain in existence for the 230 some odd years. If it was too specific I don't think it could have adjusted to deal with the changing world nearly as well as it has. But it also allowed those of different opinions to agree to its ratification to begin with.
Call it the swiss army knife of constitutions.
 

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The Vague and Ambiguous US Constitution

It is up to us, the living to decide the path foward not the dead founding fathers in whose time only propertied white men were deamed worthy of being the pubic in republic, the decision makers.
By David K. Sutton (from The Left Call)
If there is one “original intent” we know of the Founding Fathers it is that they wrote the constitution intentionally vague. This is an important distinction to understand. What is or isn’t constitutional is decided by the judicial branch. This is because most legislative provisions simply are not mentioned in the constitution, therefore it is up to the judicial branch to interpret the words of the constitution, if these provisions face legal challenge.
E.J. Dionne reminds us of the preamble to the United States Constitution. It reads:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Dionne reminds us of the importance of those first few words, “We the People.” It is up to us to decide the path of this great country. It is no longer in the hands of the Founding Fathers. They crafted a framework that we can build on to move the country forward. This is why those who subscribe to an ideology of strict original intent have it wrong. The only intent we can ascertain is from the written text of a purposely vague document, the constitution. Beyond that it is up to “We the People” to make the country adapt and work better for all citizens as times change “in Order to form a more perfect Union.” There was no original intent when it comes to ... any number of important issues that we now face. If we get bogged down in arguments over original intent we ironically lose sight of the real original intent.
 
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The Vague and Ambiguous US Constitution
It was nearly 50 years after the Constiutional Convention before anyone had any notes one what they talked about. Even just after the convenrtion the partipants argued over what they voted for.

Original Intent and the Framers’ Constitution
By Leonard W. Levy
p. XI, Preface
“Tis funny about th’ constitution,” said Mr. Dooley, the philosophic Irish bartender created by Finley Peter Dunne. “It reads plain, but no wan can undherstant it without an interpreter.” The Supreme Court is the official and final interpreter of the Constitution, but from the beginning of its history, disputes have raged about how it should interpret the Constitution. In its very first constitutional decision the Court provoked a controversy on the question whether its judgment faithfully adhered to the intentions of the Framers of the Constitution. For several decades after the ratification of the Constitution the fading memories of those who had attended the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention supplied the main evidence of the Framers’ intent. Even when those memories were fresh, the Framers disagreed vehemently about what the Convention had meant or intended, as the controversy in 1791 over the chartering of the Bank of the United States showed. Not until the publication of Madison’s Notes in 1840 did a source become available for original intent analysis. […]
As time has passed there are addition 'understandings' as new issues have arise and new tecnologies came into play.
Conversely, if two centuries of constitutional government have resulted in wider understanding than the text itself suggests, that is, if the meaning of the text has become expanded beyond its literal phrasing, the text takes second place. Thus, although the Framers did not include “words” as well as “persons, houses, papers, and effects” in the Fourth Amendment and although eavesdropping was commonplace in the eighteenth century, words seized by wiretapping and electronic eavesdropping come within the amendment’s protection against unreasonable search and seizure. Similarly, the right against compulsory self-incrimination protected by the Fifth Amendment seems, literally, to apply only in “criminal cases,” but the text applies with equal force to nonjudicial proceedings such as grand jury and legislative investigations, to administrative proceedings, and even to civil cases in which questions are posed that might, if truthfully answered, raise a threat of criminal jeopardy. Notwithstanding some advocates of a jurisprudence of original intent, the Constitution cannot be interpreted literally, if only because it is murky at important points. Were it not, the real cases would not keep arising.
 
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The Vague and Ambiguous US Constitution
Madison wrote about his frustration that his Constitution changed in ways he could not anticipate. Things change and going back to see what the founders seemed to say is problematic. Words change. Traditions change. Public opinion changes.
But the sense of the nation was not easily discovered or discoverable, not even as to major allocations of power, let alone as to the meanings of particular clauses. So Madison argued in The Federalist #37. He believed that to allocate authority between the federal and state governments and between the three branches of the federal government created problems that perplexed even statesmen, jurists, and philosophers. The Constitution necessarily contained ambiguities. It reminded him of laws that had been framed with the greatest technical skill and passed in fullest deliberation, yet remained “more or less equivocal, until their meaning be . . . ascertained by a series of particular discussions and adjudications.” Words stated ideas imperfectly, giving them an “unavoidable inaccuracy” that increased with the complexity and novelty of a task such as strengthening the Union. Madison offered various reasons for “vague and incorrect definition,” any one of which resulted in obscurity of meaning. The Convention, he concluded, “must have experienced the full effect of them all.” 81
How then was the meaning of the Constitution to be fathomed? Madison believed that experience fixed meaning in doubtful cases but that meaning was not fixed forever. He would have preferred a static Constitution, and he resisted, even deplored, certain changes in meaning. He probably had in mind the Hamiltonian financial system, the Sedition Act, and overbroad judicial opinions such as those in McCulloch v. Maryland and Cohens v. Virginia when he said that deviations from the “fair construction of the instrument have always given me a pain,” and he wished that innovations based on overbroad constructions would cease; but he knew that change was inevitable. 82 He would have preferred to believe that the Constitution speaks for itself according to the usual and established rules of interpretation, for which intention cannot be substituted. And he advocated that whenever possible the language of the Constitution should be construed according to the people’s understanding as evidenced by “contemporaneous expositions.” 83
But he understood that just as words changed in meaning, so did the Constitution. “It could not but happen, and was foreseen at the birth of the Constitution,” he declared, “that difficulties and differences of opinion might occasionally rise in expounding terms and phrases necessarily used in such a charter,” especially as to the powers in the federal system. Practice would settle some doubtful matters, and the meaning of the Constitution, to the extent that it depended upon judicial interpretations, would emerge from decisions over a period of time. 84 Madison conceded that experience had caused him to change strong opinions on some matters. For example, he once thought that the Constitution prohibited Congress from chartering a bank, but he had been compelled to change his mind, because the sovereign will had expressed itself by acquiescence in a course of exposition that altered the original meaning of the Constitution. Popular understanding simply had overruled his previous views of the matter. When an authoritative, uniform, and sustained course of decision or practice received “public sanction,” Madison believed that the Constitution evolved in meaning, and the old must give way to the new. 85 When the words that composed a text altered in their meaning, “it is evident that the shape and attributes of the Government must partake of the change to which the words and phrases of all living languages are constantly subject. . . . [O] ur Constitution is already undergoing interpretations unknown to its founders. . . .” 86 Similarly, he observed: “Some of the terms of the Federal Constitution have already undergone perceptible deviations from their original import.” 87 Those were not facts that he applauded; rather, he personally disapproved but understood and acquiesced.
 
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Benjamin David Steele said:
I'll chime in as the author of the linked blog post. First off, I'd note that I favor the Anti-Federalists and, as some of them did, I consider them the true Federalists. They supported a confederation, as opposed to a centralized nation-state or empire. Edited. I'm opposed to unjustified concentration of power. But I'm not against government on principle. And speaking of big vs little government doesn't necessarily seem meaningful. The issue is more about where is the locus of power. The Articles of Confederation, our first constitution, was closer to a democratic document of self-governance. Whereas the second constitution, whose enactment was unconstitutional according to the first, was a reinstatement of the kind of political system that the British Empire used to rule the colonies. After the Constitutional Convention, only a few percentage of the population could vote or hold public office and taxes were higher than before, hardly taxation with representation.

The revolution didn't end when the ruling elite declared it over. In explaining why they fought, one American revolutionary (Levi Preston) from the working class stated that, "we always had governed ourselves, and we always meant to." And they meant to continue to govern themselves, no matter what elites said in the British Parliament or in the US Constitutional Convention. It required the violent and oppressive force of the newly formed US federal military to put down the continued revolts of the ongoing revolution, from Shay’s Rebellion to the Whiskey Rebellion. One might point out that the American Revolution in its entirety was a continuation of unresolved issues from the English Civil War (what some consider the first modern revolution, a regicidal one at that), as argued by Kevin Phillips in The Cousins' Wars. Since this remained unresolved in that first constitutional crisis in the American Revolution, it set the stage for the Civil War. If the brilliance of the US Constitution is its mercurial vagueness and ambiguity that can never be pinned down and so can be reinterpreted again and again in contradictory and conflicting ways, that is also its Achilles' heel in being a weak foundation, specifically for a credal nation.

Admittedly, the Federalist vs Anti-Federalist conflict was complicated. A Federalists like John Dickinson appears to genuinely have been Federalist in the original meaning. And that is probably why he could write the draft of a document like the Articles of Confederation that was received well by Anti-Federalists. He wasn't an anti-imperialist revolutionary by nature or principle, but he came to see the wisdom of confederation as interpreted through his Quaker upbringing. Then there is an Anti-Federalist like Jefferson, well known for his inconsistency or even hypocrisy. It was his actions as president with the Louisiana Purchase that, maybe more than anything else, determined an expansionist and imperialist-style Federalism that further strengthened slavery in spreading its reach across the continent --- quite opposite of the confederationist vision of a "United States" that brought together small coastal states (that phrase came from the Anti-Federalist Thomas Paine). The consequences of that course of action remain, no matter Jefferson's own best hopes and intentions.

I'm of mixed opinion about it all. It is what it is. And we can't change history. America has become an empire, far vaster and more powerful than was the British Empire during the colonial era, and with a much larger standing army as feared by the Anti-Federalists and some Federalists (what John Dickinson warned about as placing "purse and sword" in the hands of a centralized government). The Constitutional Convention itself, in its original intention and constitutional justification for being formed at all, was to improve upon the Articles and not replace them. They exceeded their mandate according to the power held by the sovereign states (that is why they were called 'states') and according to the will of the people. Everything else hinges on that.

Much of my interest is driven by curiosity, although more than merely being 'academic'. Whatever my personal opinion, I simply find that revolutionary and post-revolutionary era fascinating, partly because the conflicts then were conflicts that had been developing for centuries and that remain hot button issues to this day. There is something hidden in the outward debates that never gets fully articulated, much less settled. It's the energizing and enervating force of our society. This is why we are a society prone to extremes and instability, the reason we required a civil war to end slavery whereas most other countries managed to do it peacefully through legislation. The US is a young country, compared to societies that are millennia old, and it's uncertain how long this imperfect union will last.
Some very good information, perhaps you will contribute some more.

"Such a constitution means whatever those in power say it means. That is the wonder of a constitution that can mean almost anything to anyone." is a good point. Intense partisanship has led to a divided Congress leaving governing in the hands of the Executive and Judiciary. We do not discuss modern politics here, limiting discussion on these things to the nineteenth century.

I selectively quoted an anti-originalist article, to show that truth cannot be found in the entrails of the papers of the eighteenth century, but that how the Lincoln administration interpreted law was important. The winner of the Civil War got to use their interpretation of law.
 

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Benjamin David Steele said:
My younger life was about evenly divided between living in the North and living in the South. Also, my ancestors fought on both sides of the Civil War. Even though I identify more as a Northerner and even though I don't agree with some of the reasons given by Southerners in demanding secession, I do think we might now all be better off if we went our separate ways. Heck even divided in two might be too large, compared to what goes for a county in many other places.

It seems to me that the cultural differences are too great. Massive size and diversity is perfectly fine in an empire, but not so much in a nation-state. I also have suspicions that democracy is only possible on the small scale. I think the founders had it right the first time with the Articles of Confederation. It allowed collaboration for defense while maintaining local sovereignty.

The Constitution set us on a wrong path, at least according to original intentions. And those original intentions were the only justification there ever was for starting a revolution and founding a new country. So, in negating those original intentions, it puts us in a quagmire. How are we better off than Canadians or Australians who didn't revolt?
Had the AOC been a good idea, we'd stuck with it. Regrettably, coercion seems to be the only way to govern, limiting it was the problem the Founding Fathers faced and we still face today.
 

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Benjamin David Steele said:
Understood. That is wise. I will comply.
I hope in general to see more threads/posts about the anti-federalist and social contract/compact views that apply to Secession. All too often we lose the view of the logic that drove secession and think it is without logic. Any help along those lines would be appreciated.
 

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Benjamin David Steele said:
I'd like to see that as well. And I'd love to help, if possible. But my knowledge is limited. I've never studied secession in detail, only coming at it indirectly in relation to other topics. But I would point out that the American Revolution was basically fought over secession. Before there was fighting, those like Thomas Paine were making arguments for why separation was necessary and justified. There are two arguments I recall offhand. The first was about the size issue. Paine mocked England as being an island, implying they had no right to be ruling an empire. He portrayed it as ridiculous that an island should attempt to govern an entire continent. It was an exaggeration considering the colonies were a tiny coastal region of the vast continent, the territory of which mostly having been under the control of other empires or else Native Americans.

As for Paine's second argument, I find it more compelling in terms of secession. And it was an intriguing attack for one who was born and raised in England, not having come to the American colonies until middle age. As you might know, he arrived in Pennsylvania which was fitting since his father was a Quaker. Like several other colonies, Pennsylvania was majority non-English. There were so many people of German ancestry that government documents and notices were printed in both the English language and the German language. Colonies like South Carolina weren't only majority non-English but also majority non-white. The British ruling elite certainly were aware of this. Also, consider that more criminals were sent to the American colonies than to Australia. Between many colonists not being English and many others not being respectable, the governing officials back in England were reluctant to accord the colonists with the full rights of Englishmen. And so Paine was correct in saying that, if we don't have the rights of Englishmen, then we aren't really English. Instead, we are American. It was an argument based on America's early diversity, as was common in many colonies around the world. Empires are multicultural projects.

That could be seen as feeding into the Civil War. The industrialization of the North was being fueled by mass immigration. A large proportion of Union soldiers were immigrants fresh off the boats. The South was far less diverse and for that reason with less thriving industry. Immigration was creating a schism in American society and so exacerbating regionalism. Southerners could invert Paine's argument: Who are these masses of immigrants in the North to fight against our right to cultural and political sovereignty? The diversity that defined America as distinct from England now defined the North as distinct from the South. That is maybe why the Confederacy saw it as important to seek an alliance with the British Empire. The romanticized culture of the South was that of the Cavaliers, based on the Norman rulers who formed the English aristocracy and monarchy. That might also be why the call for revolution had first come from the northern colonies, not the southern ones. To choose secession or not probably most often comes down to culture more than politics.

On a slightly different note, we could consider states rights. Their origin are less noble than they sometimes get portrayed. Native Americans made their treaties with the federal government, not the state governments. So only the federal government could change, renegotiate, or break treaties. But some Southerners wanted Native American land and the federal government wouldn't give it to them. That was the first time the states rights was used, in the hope of usurping the federal power of treaties. The motive was in seeking a purely cynical land grab in stealing native territory. It was unsurprising that claims of states rights would then be used in defense of slavery and later Jim Crow. And it is amusing that, during the Civil War, some black and white Southerners seceded from the Confederacy in creating the "State of Jones", not that the Confederate government was amused. Secession led to splintering, which for obvious reasons wasn't tolerated. That is a major fear of secession, that it will lead to balkanization. Once set, it is hard to undo a precedent.
Sounds good.
 

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The Secession of 1860-61 is a bit odd in that from the Union perspective they were righting a rebellion by individuals and combinations that were unable to be suppressed by normal law and order. A common 1860s perspective was that while Secession was Unconstitutional, it was also Unconstitutional to coerce States back into the Union. I personally am unable to figure out how in peacetime Lincoln could have mobilized enough resources to coerce the States back into the Union which was broke with a very small Federal Army, I also believe that the Taney SCOTUS would have ruled it unconstitutional. Lincoln was in a hole.

Luckily for him, the South was ready to go to war if its demands were not met and when they were not met the South went to war. War cuts through all the legal knots and secession was colored rebellion because fighting a rebellion is Constitutional. Also lucky for Lincoln was that the war enraged the Nothern population to unite and provide whatever resources were needed to suppress the rebellion. It was literally a case of who shot first lost.

IMHO secession is a political activity which will be resolved by peaceful politics- I use the nullification of the Federal Fugitive Slave Laws by the north as an example the North elected their own government instead of seceding for the peaceful route and the Civil War for the nonpeaceful political route.

A thread The Differences between the Antebellum North and South discusses the different civilizations of the North and South. IMHO the South did not change from the Revolution onwards, but the North literally became a different country.
Another thread Fort Sumter and Confederate Diplomacy discusses the warlike status of the CSA.
 

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CW Buff said:
How do BDS.

The Framers didn't think so. That was the main reason they abandoned the AoCs. Amendments had been proposed before, and the mood of the time was such that it was impossible to enact amendments in accordance with the AoCs. States were supposed to voluntarily do what was best for the Union first, and themselves second. The AoCs proved that was impossible on a unanimous basis. As G. Morris said, no treaty among the states as independent sovereignties could work. As the Convention said, a system in which the states remained fully independent and sovereign was obviously impracticable. The Union just barely made it through the Revolution, and that was with a major threat pressing down on them. Historically, confederations had survived for a time, but all had failed relatively quickly once an imminent external threat was removed. A government you can obey, or not if you prefer, ignores human passions and self interests. Today, there are no more confederations (voluntary governments), the only form of political union is in the form of federations (compulsive majority rule).


Green - Federations; Blue - Unitary States; Source -

The Framers were right.
Amendments needed 13 votes in the AOC. That would never happen. Interestingly enough 9 States delegates meeting was a quorum. 9 States needed to ratify the constitution.
 

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Benjamin David Steele said:
Of course, they didn't think so. The 'Framers' of the Constitutional Convention, as in those who attended and signed the Constitution, were a small subset of the influential revolutionaries of the time. They were largely selected because many of them already agreed to some extent. Those who strongly disagreed were cut out of the process. Also, a large number refused to attend or else add their signature. That it was passed anyway was completely unconstitutional based on the founding document of the Articles of Confederation. It was a coup, in that power was simply seized in essentially forming a new government. So, saying that those who seized power agreed with each other isn't exactly evidence of its justification, morally or politically.
It is justified because it worked.
 

jgoodguy

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Benjamin David Steele said:
We could argue about that. I don't know that there is only one kind of confederation. If the Articles had been revised as intended, maybe the US today would be something along the lines of the European Union, where the countries involved maintain basic sovereignty and are free to leave whenever they choose. We will never know what the revisions might have been. What we do know is that the second constitution was unconstitutional according to the first constitution. That is a fact. And it isn't a fortuitous beginning to a country. Considering that the new government was instituted through an authoritarian grab for power, maybe we shouldn't be surprised that imperialism is what followed as the Anti-Federalists feared and warned.
Lots of interesting what ifs. The problem was the AOC was failing. Sometimes success cures all problems. There is no justification in a failed nation that attempts some theoretical perfection. Sometimes survival is good enough.
 
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