Serfs and Slavery...

5fish

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Here is an article that compares the two...

With the stroke of his pen, the nation’s leader abolished a system of servitude that had lasted generations. Over twenty million people received their liberty in this declaration of emancipation. In 1861, Alexander II of Russia freed the serfs almost two years before Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation. The Russians, however, did it without war. The Tsar allegedly said that his top-down decree precluded a bottom-up revolt.

Snip...

Serfdom was a form of agricultural servitude that most of Europe had left behind in the medieval period. Russian serfdom developed, as historian William C. Hine writes, during roughly the same time period as American slavery. The Russian Code of 1649 “firmly embedded serfdom” as a labor system. The Virginia House of Burgesses’s first piece of slave legislation, allowing African slavery for life, passed in 1661. Though both slavery and serfdom mandated total control over the bodies of those in bondage, Hine says the Russian experience was “incredibly more varied and complex than its American counterpart” because of the time-honored relationship between peasants and the land.

Snip...

Nonetheless, as historian Peter Kolchin shows, the defenders of both systems used much the same justification through the eighteenth century.

Defenders of slavery in the United States pointed to an alleged racial difference as the reason Africans and African-Americans needed to be enslaved. In this racist argument, blacks were not fit for freedom

Russian lords believed the same thing about serfs. The class difference was so great, Kolchin says, that “Russian noblemen had come to regard themselves as inherently different from their peasants.”

Kolchin writes that the Russian nobles “invented many of the same kinds of racial arguments to defend serfdom that American slave-owners used to justify” slavery. Some nobles went so far as to say they had white bones, while the serfs had black bones. Kolchin calls this an “essentially racial argument in defense of serfdom, even though no racial distinction divided lord and peasant.”

Both Russians and Americans argued that their systems of bondage resulted in a superior society.

Link to the article:https://daily.jstor.org/how-american-slavery-echoed-russian-serfdom/

There is a book...



Summary:
Two massive systems of unfree labor arose, a world apart from each other, in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries. The American enslavement of blacks and the Russian subjection of serfs flourished in different ways and varying degrees until they were legally abolished in the mid-nineteenth century. Historian Peter Kolchin compares and contrasts the two systems over time in this magisterial book, which clarifies the organization, structure, and dynamics of both social entities, highlighting their basic similarities while pointing out important differences discernible only in comparative perspective.

These differences involved both the masters and the bondsmen. The independence and resident mentality of American slaveholders facilitated the emergence of a vigorous crusade to defend slavery from outside attack, whereas an absentee orientation and dependence on the central government rendered serfholders unable successfully to defend serfdom. Russian serfs, who generally lived on larger holdings than American slaves and faced less immediate interference in their everyday lives, found it easier to assert their communal autonomy but showed relatively little solidarity with peasants outside their own villages; American slaves, by contrast, were both more individualistic and more able to identify with all other blacks, both slave and free.

Kolchin has discovered apparently universal features in master–bondsman relations, a central focus of his study, but he also shows their basic differences as he compares slave and serf life and chronicles patterns of resistance. If the masters had the upper hand, the slaves and serfs played major roles in shaping, and setting limits to, their own bondage.

This truly unprecedented comparative work will fascinate historians, sociologists, and all social scientists, particularly those with an interest in comparative history and studies in slavery.




 

5fish

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A video to help us...

 

O' Be Joyful

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August 24, 1855: Letter to Joshua F. Speed

The American or "Know Nothing Party" was an anti-immigrant political party of the 1850's.

I am not a Know-Nothing. That is certain. How could I be? How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we begin by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty-to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy.--A. Lincoln

https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/knownothingparty.htm
​
 

O' Be Joyful

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" When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty-to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy.--A. Lincoln

To add: This seems ever MORE true Today.

Beware and be on-guard, despotism may arise in places where you would at one time...least expect it.
 

5fish

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To add: This seems ever MORE true Today.
I agree....

I found that we did have serfdom in the south after reconstruction and system called "peonage"

https://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/themes/peonage/

Slavery v. Peonage

Peonage, also called debt slavery or debt servitude, is a system where an employer compels a worker to pay off a debt with work. Legally, peonage was outlawed by Congress in 1867. However, after Reconstruction, many Southern black men were swept into peonage though different methods, and the system was not completely eradicated until the 1940s.

In some cases, employers advanced workers some pay or initial transportation costs, and workers willingly agreed to work without pay in order to pay it off. Sometimes those debts were quickly paid off, and a fair wage worker/employer relationship established.

In many more cases, however, workers became indebted to planters (through sharecropping loans), merchants (through credit), or company stores (through living expenses). Workers were often unable to re-pay the debt, and found themselves in a continuous work-without-pay cycle.

But the most corrupt and abusive peonage occurred in concert with southern state and county government. In the south, many black men were picked up for minor crimes or on trumped-up charges, and, when faced with staggering fines and court fees, forced to work for a local employer would who pay their fines for them. Southern states also leased their convicts en mass to local industrialists. The paperwork and debt record of individual prisoners was often lost, and these men found themselves trapped in inescapable situations.


We passed a law ending it but did we...

Peonage Act of 1867 - Wikipedia


The Peonage Abolition Act of 1867 was an Act passed by the U.S. Congress on March 2, 1867, that abolished peonage in the New Mexico Territory and elsewhere in the United States.

Designed to help enforce the Thirteenth Amendment, the Act declares that holding any person to service or labor under the peonage system is unlawful and forever prohibited. It defines peonage as the "voluntary or involuntary service or labor of any persons . . . in liquidation of any debt or obligation."
Violations of the Act were punishable by fines and imprisonment.
 

O' Be Joyful

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I agree....

I found that we did have serfdom in the south after reconstruction and system called "peonage"

https://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/themes/peonage/

Slavery v. Peonage

Peonage, also called debt slavery or debt servitude, is a system where an employer compels a worker to pay off a debt with work. Legally, peonage was outlawed by Congress in 1867. However, after Reconstruction, many Southern black men were swept into peonage though different methods, and the system was not completely eradicated until the 1940s.


In many more cases, however, workers became indebted to planters (through sharecropping loans), merchants (through credit), or company stores (through living expenses). Workers were often unable to re-pay the debt, and found themselves in a continuous work-without-pay cycle.
And then, "they" invented" credit cards.
 

Hannibal

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Foot wrote and meant, slavery extended over the whole Union, USSC said so, Government had no lawfull authority to limit anywhere in the union, USSC said so, FSA extended over the whole Union and was superior to State law, slavery, and what to do about it, was State matter, it was not delegated to the federal government to do anything about it, only the separate States had that authority, which was why it could only be ended by states choosing to do so, and it was ended only because the Slave states chose to pass the amendment, had they wanted to stop its passing, they had enough votes to prevent its passing and so keep slavery. States had that authority because they were sovereign, Republicans simply denied they were and did not have that right, and they went to war to end state sovereignty and maintain the union, with slaves for any that agreed with them, and those that did not, half wat through the war, would be punished by having their slave property taken from then unless they gave up their being a subject and citizen of the state they born or naturalised into, and recognise the federal government as the supreme sovereignty by taking the new iron clad oath.
 

Hannibal

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Being free meant you were still not equal in the northern states, you could not vote, you could not give evidence in court, you could not bea citizen of the state, (Unlike the southern states that made free blacks citizens of that state, except SC that did not and fourced them to leave the state on manumission) etc.
Lincoln in 62 “You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffers very greatly, many of them, by living among us, while ours suffers from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this is admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be separated.”


1857 “There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races … A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas…”

and again

1858 “I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes.”




Lincoln “Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.”

Lincoln made the following pledge: “I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality.”


Wilmot admitted, "I make no war upon the South, nor upon slavery in the South. I have no . . . sympathy for the slave. I plead the cause . . . of white freemen. I would preserve for free white labor a fair country . . . where the sons of toil, of my own race and own color, can live without the disgrace which association with negro slavery brings upon free labor."

Eight years later in 1854 future President Lincoln said: "The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [western] territories. We want them for the homes of free white people." Four years afterward in 1858 Illinois Republican Senator Lyman Trumbull said, "We, the Republican party, are the white man's party." That same year Massachusetts Republican Senator Henry Wilson said, "I do not believe in the equality of the African with the white race."

The year Lincoln was elected President in 1860 his future Secretary of State, William Seward, said, "The great fact is now fully realized that the African race here [in America] is a foreign element incapable of assimilation. . . " Frank Blair, whose brother became Lincoln's Postmaster General and chief advocate for re-provisioning Fort Sumter, told audiences that the "Republican Party is the white man's party and will keep the Territories for white men."
 

Hannibal

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“Free them and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this . . . . We cannot then make them equals”
-Abraham Lincoln The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln

“I tell him very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship”
-Abraham Lincoln

“I will to the very last stand by the law of this state[], which forbids the marrying of white people with Negroes.”
-Abraham Lincoln

The Ohio supreme court Calvin v. Carter
It has always been admitted, that our political institutions embrace the white population only. Persons of color were not recognized as having any political existence. They had no agency in our political organizations, and possessed no political rights under it. Two or three of the States form exceptions. The constitutions of fourteen expressly exclude persons of color by a provision similar to our own; and, in the balance of the States, they are excluded on the ground that they were never recognized as a part of the body politic.... Indeed, it is a matter of history, that the very object of introducing the word white into our constitution, by the convention framing that instrument, was to put this question beyond all cavil or doubt, by, in express terms, excluding all persons from the enjoyment of the elective franchise, except persons of pure white blood.

Thacher v. Hawk Indiana supreme court
This exclusion of persons of color, or, of any degree of colored blood, from all political rights, is not founded upon a mere naked prejudice, but upon natural differences. The two races are placed as wide apart by the hand of nature as white from black, and, to break down the barriers, fixed, as it were, by the Creator himself, in a political and social amalgamation, shocks us, as something unnatural and wrong. It strikes us as a violation of the laws of nature. It would be productive of no good. It would degrade the white, if it could be accomplished, without elevating the black. Indeed, if we gather lessons of wisdom from the history of mankind — walk by the light of our experience, or consult the principles of human nature, we shall be convinced that the two races never can live together upon terms of equality and harmony.

Crandall v. The State Connecticut supreme court
The persons contemplated in this act are not citizens within the obvious meaning of that section of the Constitution of the United States which I have just read. Let me begin by putting this plain question: Are slaves citizens? At the adoption of the Constitution of the United States, every State was a slave State.... We all know that slavery is recognized in that Constitution; it is the duty of this court to take that Constitution as it is, for we have sworn to support it.... Then slaves were not considered citizens by the framers of the Constitution....
Are free blacks citizens?... To my mind it would be a perversion of terms, and the well known rules of construction, to say that slaves, free blacks, or Indians were citizens, within the meaning of that term as used in the Constitution. God forbid that I should add to the degradation of this race of men; but I am bound, by my duty, to say that they are not citizens.

Pre war, Dickens and other europeans all wrote about what they saw in America and commented on racisim being worse in the North than the south.
Segregation did not exist in the slave states, it was a free state invention. New York, Massachusetts, Ohio, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania all segregated black and white and denied free blacks the right to vote, ( no black could use the courts so no contract with them was able to be enforced by the black, as the black could not counter what the white man said in court) and taught blacks differently than whites, including their place in society, post WBTS the former slave states enacted jim crow laws, all initially taken from existing free states laws, including on how to educate blacks.

Gov of indiana “The subject of the colonization of the free blacks is now beginning to receive that attention which its importance demands. The circumstances which surround us, are pressing our people to look into this subject in the right light, and in a proper spirit. . . . We in the north are adopting extraordinary means for removing them, by prohibiting them from holding property, excluding them from the protection of the laws, and denying them any rights whatever.”

Senator Lyman Trumbull, of Illinois
"I want to have nothing to do either with the free negro or the slave negro. We, the Republican party, are the white man’s party. We are for free white men, and for making white labor respectable and honorable, which it never can be when negro slave labor is brought into competition with it. We wish to settle the Territories with free white men, and we are willing that this negro race should go anywhere that it can to better its condition, wishing them God speed wherever they go. We believe it is better for us that they should not be among us. I believe it will be better for them to go elsewhere"

Senator Joseph A. Wright of Indiana “ [W]e do not intend to allow our region of the country to be overrun with the black race. Such is the prejudice, such is the settled conviction of our people, that the wall which we have erected is to stand. We intend to have in our State as far as possible, a white population, and we do not intend to have our jails and penitentiaries filled with the free blacks”
 

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Russian serfs lived shorter lives than black slaves, Slaves emancipated in the USA did not see a greater life expectancy till the 1940s, ie being free made no difference, while in Russia it added c15 years.
 

5fish

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Being free meant you were still not equal in the northern states, you could not vote, you could not give evidence in court, you could not bea citizen of the state, (Unlike the southern states that made free blacks citizens of that state, except SC that did not and fourced them to leave the state on manumission) etc.
Lincoln in 62 “You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffers very greatly, many of them, by living among us, while ours suffers from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this is admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be separated.”


1857 “There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races … A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas…”

and again

1858 “I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes.”




Lincoln “Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.”

Lincoln made the following pledge: “I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality.”


Wilmot admitted, "I make no war upon the South, nor upon slavery in the South. I have no . . . sympathy for the slave. I plead the cause . . . of white freemen. I would preserve for free white labor a fair country . . . where the sons of toil, of my own race and own color, can live without the disgrace which association with negro slavery brings upon free labor."

Eight years later in 1854 future President Lincoln said: "The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [western] territories. We want them for the homes of free white people." Four years afterward in 1858 Illinois Republican Senator Lyman Trumbull said, "We, the Republican party, are the white man's party." That same year Massachusetts Republican Senator Henry Wilson said, "I do not believe in the equality of the African with the white race."

The year Lincoln was elected President in 1860 his future Secretary of State, William Seward, said, "The great fact is now fully realized that the African race here [in America] is a foreign element incapable of assimilation. . . " Frank Blair, whose brother became Lincoln's Postmaster General and chief advocate for re-provisioning Fort Sumter, told audiences that the "Republican Party is the white man's party and will keep the Territories for white men."
Okay... I like your quotes but t is know Lincoln and members of his cabinet would be consider racist and so be it. I am trying to figure who you are slandering and why... Lincoln grew and the Republican party grew and passed the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments and in 100 year American grew and enlighten themselves in their humanity...
 

Hannibal

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You dont know that the written word is libel, not slander, which is the spoken word, and since what i quoted is historical fact its not either, just actual history.

13th was only able to pass because the former slave states voted to pass it, there was not enough free states to pass it over there votes, ie had they wanted to keep slavery legally over the Union, all they had to do was to not pass the 13th, so much for the war being fought over the right to have slaves, if it was ll they had to do was to vote against the 13th and keep them, yet they chose to emancipate instead. 14th and 15th Amendments was passed on condition that the states re wrote their state constitutions to remove that they sovereign states, until they did the state was under martial law, IE The States were coerced into signing them to regain political representation. In that 100 years the initial Black Senators in reconstruction, were not replaced, it became a white only political elite and segregation as practised in the North became a national thing.
 

5fish

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yet they chose to emancipate instead. 14th and 15th Amendments was passed on condition that the states re wrote their state constitutions to remove that they sovereign states, until they did the state was under martial law, IE The States were coerced into signing them to regain political representation.
No... they were conquer and to reenter the union had to rewrite their constitutions adding the 14th and 15th amendment to them... No states in the Union had to... There a price when you revolt... The did not have any sovereignty... The southern state passed the 13th for readmission as well..
 

Hannibal

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No... they were conquer and to reenter the union had to rewrite their constitutions adding the 14th and 15th amendment to them... No states in the Union had to... There a price when you revolt... The did not have any sovereignty... The southern state passed the 13th for readmission as well..
Entirely fact free post. State constituition and teh national constitution are two totally different things. 13th was a full and free vote, the legalisation for the 14th and 15th for readmittance ( despite the fiction that they had never left as determined by USSC) only arose after it had been ratified. VA NY RI all specified the right of unilateral secession at will in their ratification of the Constitution, once the 10th was adopted no further state had to do so as it had the same rights as already expressed by existing members.

US law on insurcetion at the time did not do as you claim, what it did do was to return any and all property seized during insurrection to you as an individual after conviction in the state it was confiscated, or full market value awarded for inability to return that property to you. All citizens of former slave states were coerced into signing the new iron clad oath that replaced state primacy to to a claim of sovereignty over them, until they did so they were taxed at +50%.

So your view is totally at odds with history.
 
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Hannibal

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Only the dead have seen the end of war. is by George Santayana in 1922
 

5fish

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Only the dead have seen the end of war. is by George Santayana in 1922
Thanks.... for the assist...

The complete phrase from his text is actually, "Only the dead are safe; only the dead have seen the end of war."
 
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