"What if" God did intervene in our Civil War...

Jim Klag

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R. E. Lee - "Tell Hill he must come up. Strike the tent"

Stonewall - "Order A.P. Hill to prepare for action! Pass the infantry to the front rapidly! Tell Major Hawks . . . Let us cross over the river, and rest under the shade of the trees."
 

diane

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Pretty much. Both called for A. P. Hill in some fashion.
Stonewall Jackson calling for Hill was certain - Chancellorsville had only been a short time ago and he was reliving the battle. Little Powell was with his group when Berry's men opened up on them, and saved Jackson's life by knowing how to use a tourniquet. But, he sure had the best last words ever: Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees. There was a roomful of people who witnessed all this, so it's definitely what happened.

Lee, it's actually doubtful he had any last words. Recent studies of the type of stroke he had show damage to the part of the brain controlling will - his wife related she could, say, press his hand and he would return it, but he could not initiate an action nor did he ever speak again. He'd come in from a church meeting and, it seems, Lee's last words were spoken at that meeting! The church elders were quibbling about how to pay for an improvement and Lee, who really wanted to get home and eat his supper, suddenly said, "I will pay that sum." (Somehow, that seems to be an even more appropriate 'last word' for Lee.) A student at the college met Lee walking in the rain toward his house and stopped to talk with him, but Lee said nothing. When he got home, Mary chatted at him but again he said nothing. Then, when they sat down to dinner, he was supposed to say the blessing but nothing came out - apparently there was a second event. Mary related that he looked at her in a startled way and she believed he died right then! It just took a while for his body to realize it. When Lee died, they were listening for his last words - very important in that day - but likely what was heard was sounds, not words. His son, Robert Jr, recorded he had called for Hill and said "Strike the tent". He didn't hear this himself - he was on his way but didn't make it before his father died, so someone else told him.

Just incidentally, A P Hill and Lee became quite close at the end of the war. For one thing, Little Powell was the last general standing - all the rest had been killed or severely wounded. Hill had a very compassionate side to him and Lee found this general was a good friend and confidante - sometimes he needed a shoulder to lean on and Hill was there. Until he wasn't. One day riding a scout he was shot out of his saddle by Union soldiers he came across - and he probably wasn't unhappy about this turn of events. He was dying - uremic poisoning from kidney failure - and he didn't want to see Richmond fall. No suicide, as some have suggested, just Hill being Hill - he impulsively came forward beside his aide and got shot.
 

5fish

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Thoughts AI... @Hannibal ....

Divine Intervention in the American Civil WarThroughout the Civil War, both Union and Confederate leaders frequently invoked the hand of God to justify their causes and make sense of the bloodshed.Providence and Judgment: Abraham Lincoln famously wrestled with this concept, expressing in his Second Inaugural Address that the war might be God's judgment on both the North and the South for the sin of slavery. He recognized that both sides read the same Bible and prayed to the same God.The Union Perspective: Many abolitionists viewed the conflict as a divine instrument intended not just to preserve the Union, but to permanently eradicate the moral atrocity of human bondage.The Confederate Perspective: Southern clerics and military leaders like Stonewall Jackson also cited God's will, viewing their battlefield successes as divine favor for their way of life.Historians continue to analyze the tension between the sacred and the secular in the conflict. You can explore deeper theological and historical arguments on this topic through the Gettysburg College Historical Journal.The
 

Hannibal

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Only the CSA preamble refers to the will of god, US Constitution ignores God.if one accepts its war against slavery then its a war agisnt gods laws and regulation for a practice he condones.

We, the people of the Confederate States, each State acting in its sovereign and independent character, in order to form a permanent federal government, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God do ordain and establish this Constitution for the Confederate States of America.

There are at least seven passages in the Bible where God is depicted as directly permitting or endorsing slavery. Two of these are in the Law of Moses: God permitted the Israelites to take slaves from conquered peoples permanently, and the Israelites could sell themselves into slavery temporarily to pay off debts (Exod 21:2-11; Lev 25:44-46). The other five passages are in the New Testament, where slavery as a social institution is endorsed and slaves are called to obey their masters “in everything” (Eph 6:5-9; Col 3:22-4:1; 1 Tim 6:1-2; Tit 2:9-10; 1 Pet 2:18-20).
But slavery is viewed positively in Scripture well beyond these commands. Owning slaves was seen as a sign of God’s blessing (Gen 12:16; 24:35; Isa 14:1-2), and there are literally dozens of passages in the Bible that speak of slavery in passing, without comment. Slavery was simply part of life, and most people saw it as just the way things always were, even the divinely ordained order of things.
slaveAnd yes, in case there is any doubt, this was real slavery: “the slave is the owner’s property” (Exod 21:21). Both Old and New Testaments called for better treatment of slaves than many of the peoples around them, and the Law of Moses in particular called for better treatment of fellow Israelites as slaves. But slaves could be beaten (Exod 21:20-21; 1 Pet 2:18-20), and slaves could be taken as concubines (Gen 16:3-4; Exod 21:8-11) or even raped without serious consequence (Lev 19:20-22).
These passages are all pretty straightforward. One could even say that the Bible is clear on this: the institution of slavery is permitted by God, endorsed by God, and owning slaves can even be a sign of God’s blessing.

To which i will add Romans 13:1-2: “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.” To do away with gods ordained lws/regulations for slavery is to be damned in the herafter.
 
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5fish

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@Hannibal ... Your last post was scary but I bring hope... The political right still wants to use the old testament to justify bad behaviors... Read your New Testament quotes all talk about spiritual equality...

Most of your quotes are from the Old testament which was replaced with a new covenant by the New Testament... The New Testament we are all spiritually equal leading to the end of slavery...

Christians follow the teachings of the New Testament under the New Covenant brought by Jesus Christ, rather than the Old Testament Law of Moses. However, Christianity still values the Old Testament as divinely inspired scripture that points to Christ, explains the nature of God, and provides foundational moral teachings.

The New Testament does not issue an outright, universal condemnation of slavery. Instead, it regulates the practice, urging enslaved people to obey their masters and calling on masters to treat their slaves fairly. However, it also emphasizes spiritual equality and mutual respect, planting seeds that ultimately challenged the institution.


Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

Colossians 3:11: Echoes Galatians, stating that in the new life of faith, "there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and free; but Christ is all and in all

Philemon 1:16: Paul urges a master named Philemon to welcome back his runaway slave, Onesimus, "no longer as a slave but more than a slave, a beloved brother".
 
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Hannibal

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In 1845 the baptist church split over slavery, its norther members controlled it, said slave owners could no longer be missionaries, so the Southern Baptist unilaterally seceded from the Triennial convention, in a nutshell the NT has Timothy 1:10, he lists enslavers ("manstealers" or kidnappers) alongside those who practice lawlessness, identifying the trade of human beings as contrary to God's law, which was how Northern baptist saw slavery, Southern baptist were more OT, it now outnumbers their norther brethren 12 to 1, in 1845 they were roughly equal, with the southern baptist owning over 100,000 slaves and was a vocal arm of the southern white supremacist movement from 61 till the 1990s when it got around to condeming slavery.
Church doctrine on secession, used in scotland 1733 dutch churches in 1834.
2 Corinthians 6:17 ("Come out from among them and be separate")

King Rehoboam (Solomon's son) used over taxation and forced labor, the ten northern tribes of Israel seceded to form their own kingdom. The scriptures explicitly note that God allowed and used this division as judgment for Solomon's idolatry (1 Kings 11:11-13).
 
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5fish

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In 1845 the baptist church split over slavery,
There a thread about the broken churches then it goes off the derp end....

 

5fish

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Should the Old Testament be considered like the Federalist Papers are to the Constitution a similar relationship...
 

diane

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In 1845 the baptist church split over slavery, its norther members controlled it, said slave owners could no longer be missionaries, so the Southern Baptist unilaterally seceded from the Triennial convention, in a nutshell the NT has Timothy 1:10, he lists enslavers ("manstealers" or kidnappers) alongside those who practice lawlessness, identifying the trade of human beings as contrary to God's law, which was how Northern baptist saw slavery, Southern baptist were more OT, it now outnumbers their norther brethren 12 to 1, in 1845 they were roughly equal, with the southern baptist owning over 100,000 slaves and was a vocal arm of the southern white supremacist movement from 61 till the 1990s when it got around to condeming slavery.
Church doctrine on secession, used in scotland 1733 dutch churches in 1834.
2 Corinthians 6:17 ("Come out from among them and be separate")

King Rehoboam (Solomon's son) used over taxation and forced labor, the ten northern tribes of Israel seceded to form their own kingdom. The scriptures explicitly note that God allowed and used this division as judgment for Solomon's idolatry (1 Kings 11:11-13).
The use of religion or the Bible (particularly the Old Testament) was a tool of the slave owners to justify their shameful economic system - the source of their wealth. They often controlled the message from the pulpit as well. If a plantation owner bought a pew and tithed regularly to the church, that slave owner might hear the sermons he wants to hear, don't you think? Wouldn't he rather the preacher told him he was a father to his slaves rather than a master?

The Southern Baptist did indeed split off from the Northern Baptists but let's be clear neither of them were the National Baptists. The National Baptist were the black brethren, you see. The Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians - most of the denominations split along the lines of race more than politics.

Religion is always a good place to start when subjugating people. Their own is not right, it's outlawed, the children are educated outside of it, and the new religion tells them to be good slaves (peons, peasants, serfs, etc.) and to be happy in their lot as there is pie in the sky when they die. Look at the role of religion in the conquest of South America and Mexico, and at its centuries long role in keeping one class of people ruling over another class - medieval Europe for the most familiar example. The Spanish went full Inquistion on the Incas! Somebody was reading their Bible with their eyes closed. Wait, that's true - Pizarro couldn't read or write, just knew what the padres said...and didn't believe much of that. In his case, it was using religion to justify the crudest form of greed possible. All the conquistadors did what they did under the cover of 'religion'. So did the antebellum slave owners in the South.
 

Hannibal

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The use of religion or the Bible (particularly the Old Testament) was a tool of the slave owners to justify their shameful economic system - the source of their wealth. They often controlled the message from the pulpit as well. If a plantation owner bought a pew and tithed regularly to the church, that slave owner might hear the sermons he wants to hear, don't you think? Wouldn't he rather the preacher told him he was a father to his slaves rather than a master?

The Southern Baptist did indeed split off from the Northern Baptists but let's be clear neither of them were the National Baptists. The National Baptist were the black brethren, you see. The Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians - most of the denominations split along the lines of race more than politics.

Religion is always a good place to start when subjugating people. Their own is not right, it's outlawed, the children are educated outside of it, and the new religion tells them to be good slaves (peons, peasants, serfs, etc.) and to be happy in their lot as there is pie in the sky when they die. Look at the role of religion in the conquest of South America and Mexico, and at its centuries long role in keeping one class of people ruling over another class - medieval Europe for the most familiar example. The Spanish went full Inquistion on the Incas! Somebody was reading their Bible with their eyes closed. Wait, that's true - Pizarro couldn't read or write, just knew what the padres said...and didn't believe much of that. In his case, it was using religion to justify the crudest form of greed possible. All the conquistadors did what they did under the cover of 'religion'. So did the antebellum slave owners in the South.
They even printed their own pro slavery version of the Bible, using the Uk one for the west indies it promoted slavery and downplayed any thought/right of rebellion. https://www.npr.org/2018/12/09/6749...tted-key-passages-that-could-incite-rebellion

Hard to be a National baptist, ( if you note i called them the Triennial convention which is what they were united under and in) in 1845 as that did not come into existence till 1890 with its first convention, before then the Southern baptist had c30% black members, the northern baptist we have no membership of black members as they did collect any data on race back then today its under 120,000 or 10% of all, compared to southern baptist, 6% or 900,000 of total, so perhaps that ratio would hold for the earlier period as well.

Idolatry was against the laws before the colonies left, and stayed that way. Black children received no formal education like you mean. Bible explanation for why blacks were black, and were ok for slavery is because they were those from the Curse of Ham, they were backed by the Papal bulls making it a duty to convert the heathen to Christianity, the colonial powers took this and ran with the idea as a further control mechanism. You dont appear to know where all the free slaves come from, freed because the economic system they were a part of as well as its harsh aspects hada financial reward aspect, bonus of 75$ ( around 3.5k bonus a year in 2026) a family if it was cotton planation allowed some to purchase freedom or accumulate wealth, the wealthiest slave Fogel and engerman found in Time on the cross, owned $2000 in assets, or at the death of the owner ( roughly as as likely as being whipped ) manumitted on their death, some grew up with the white children and stayed friends for life, asm recounted in the slave narratives, others not so much, otoh if you were in a sugar cane plantation you got to live on average for 6 years.........
 
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Hannibal

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Should the Old Testament be considered like the Federalist Papers are to the Constitution a similar relationship...
Yes, in the same way that playing conkers is an abstraction, of boxing.
 

Hannibal

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You and the Old Testament guy ... I knew it... The New Testament is too woke...
Every period of history that covers around a4/500 years difference, is fundamentally so different as to be unrecognisable to the last of c25 generations when they look back at the first, the people of c1500 would not understand our world at all. They certainly would not understand why the new bible/s all three of the NIV ESV ESRN dont contain the term slave anymore, as its all been removed and replaced with servant.
 

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They even printed their own pro slavery version of the Bible, using the Uk one for the west indies it promoted slavery and downplayed any thought/right of rebellion. https://www.npr.org/2018/12/09/6749...tted-key-passages-that-could-incite-rebellion

Hard to be a National baptist, ( if you note i called them the Triennial convention which is what they were united under and in) in 1845 as that did not come into existence till 1890 with its first convention, before then the Southern baptist had c30% black members, the northern baptist we have no membership of black members as they did collect any data on race back then today its under 120,000 or 10% of all, compared to southern baptist, 6% or 900,000 of total, so perhaps that ratio would hold for the earlier period as well.

Idolatry was against the laws before the colonies left, and stayed that way. Black children received no formal education like you mean. Bible explanation for why blacks were black, and were ok for slavery is because they were those from the Curse of Ham, they were backed by the Papal bulls making it a duty to convert the heathen to Christianity, the colonial powers took this and ran with the idea as a further control mechanism. You dont appear to know where all the free slaves come from, freed because the economic system they were a part of as well as its harsh aspects hada financial reward aspect, bonus of 75$ ( around 3.5k bonus a year in 2026) a family if it was cotton planation allowed some to purchase freedom or accumulate wealth, the wealthiest slave Fogel and engerman found in Time on the cross, owned $2000 in assets, or at the death of the owner ( roughly as as likely as being whipped ) manumitted on their death, some grew up with the white children and stayed friends for life, asm recounted in the slave narratives, others not so much, otoh if you were in a sugar cane plantation you got to live on average for 6 years.........
It's true a slave could work toward buying themselves - Stonewall Jackson had a man ask him to buy him so he could be hired out, keep his wage and buy himself from Jackson. Runaways were considered thieves, having stolen valuable property - themselves. There were all sorts of exceptions to the rule but the main fact was most everybody born into slavery died in slavery. Interesting note on the cane field workers. Forrest had a standing order with one slave market in Louisiana for 500 slaves a month. Indeed, the saying 'sold down the river' has a much darker meaning! And we must note the small but oh, so vital catches. Above mentioned Forrest is well-known to have offered his slaves freedom if they fought for him and he kept his word. He freed them. BUT...the offer did not extend to the families of the men. All but one or two did indeed return to Forrest. Of course, after the war he had to pay them but he didn't have to feed and clothe them! I'm pretty sure of who got the dirty end of the stick in all that.
 

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For me it's all about the Mormon Battalion and if General Phillip St Georges Cooke knew he was in charge. Both the Cooke and Young bloodline goes everywhere and everyone seems to be related to Catholic Actress Loretta Young of Salt Lake City Utah. From the records of Mormon Bishop Jacob Myers. Gravesite of CSA Col John Esten Cooke.
 

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Hannibal

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It's true a slave could work toward buying themselves - Stonewall Jackson had a man ask him to buy him so he could be hired out, keep his wage and buy himself from Jackson.
Sorry but that all made up. ( Jim lewis , see Stonewall Jackson the man the myth the legend, Bud Robertson for further details) was already being hired out to Jackson, Jackson payed 150 for the hire of Jim pre war, his owner as on the Va slave census, being W.C. Lewis of Lexington Virginia. Jackson account book shows he made irregular small payments to Jim the the reason are not given, the largest was for $30 to go home on furlough, so included traval cost) for , who was elderly, named uncle by those who knew him, he died shortly after the war from natural causes, could not have purchased his freedom as there was not enough time to aquire his value from gifts/bonus payementes etc for $10 every few months from his legal owner, who did not emancipate his property till compelled to by the 13th.

Runaways were considered thieves, having stolen valuable property - themselves.
Thats also made up by Northern abolitionist and was cultural claim, that it was the slave owner who was the thief, the law was very clear, they were fugatives from labour and it applied to all races, and the constitution Fugitive Slave Clause of the Constitution (Article IV, Section 2), which dictated that any person held to service or labor in one state who escaped to another could not be discharged from that service, but had to be delivered up to the claimant

There were all sorts of exceptions to the rule but the main fact was most everybody born into slavery died in slavery.
Yes, baring exceptions to the rule, one being social mobility in the slave states free population was slightly more mobile than Free northern states, so did most born poor die poor, and those born wealthy died wealthy.


Forrest had a standing order with one slave market in Louisiana for 500 slaves a month. Indeed, the saying 'sold down the river' has a much darker meaning!
The term comes from an eye witness ( Aaron S. Fry )account of a slave killing himself in Loisville KY, 1835, one of the largest transfer hubs of slaves in the USA at the time, when he learned his fate of being sent to the cane fields, which was death sentence. "A negro man of Mr. Elies, having been sold to go down the river, attempted first to cut off both of his legs, failing to do that, cut his throat, did not entirely take his life, went a short distance and drowned himself.” The meaning of the term has evolved since then was different to slaves in upper south who were sold down a river to the deep south as it meant parting from family and a harsher climate, all round not just the weather, its different even now in how its used.

N B Forrest owned steam ships that carried slaves including those seized by the US Government as having been illegally imported to the USA, they were sold in NO, Forrest bought them cheap at auction and sold them down coast to Texas.

Forrest sold between 3800 and 4000 slaves, so where does the 500 a month come from?, as that 54,000 slaves so exported, and all the slaves that moved east to west amounted to 2500 a year, 84% of which were single males, 65 as a family unit.


And we must note the small but oh, so vital catches. Above mentioned Forrest is well-known to have offered his slaves freedom if they fought for him and he kept his word. He freed them. BUT...the offer did not extend to the families of the men.
Does you employer also pay your family members, for your contracted hours?. If not you are being treated the same way as Forrest treated his slaves that he took to war, for which he received a $ payment for their labour use, they recieved post war a loyal slave pension from Miss, and Forrest leased them land on his his slave Coahoma plantion that pre war produced a 1000 bales of cotton a year, worked by those who di not follow Forrest off to war, to support themselves while the men folk were away. Census list shows he owned 36, 21 of which are males, 2 are children, 13 female.

All but one or two did indeed return to Forrest. Of course, after the war he had to pay them but he didn't have to feed and clothe them! I'm pretty sure of who got the dirty end of the stick in all that.
One was killed in combat one deserted, several were wounded, one being crippled, the rest survived to return with Forrest and work on his land, unlike while being a slave with cradle to grave costs born by the owner, they now lived in a different world.https://rutherfordtnhistory.org/black-confederate-in-general-forrests-raid/ https://teva.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/reconaa/id/287/
 
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LJMYERS

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I visit the Stonewall Jackson house all the time. It's on Braddock Ave up the street from the Union General Sheridan Headquarters. They say Stonewall Jackson had five slaves all with the last name of Jackson. His wife hated them as it's a small house and she wanted to be a standard housewife. So the Jackson 5 Slaves stayed at the Sheridan headquarters overnight. The Jackson house was owed by Catholic actress Mary Tyler Moore's family. Her grandfather was known as CSA Col Lewis T Moore. The Moore gravesite in Winchester VA. No one knows more about Stonewall Jackson then I do. I live on the French and Indian War Col William Rankin Estate 5 miles away near Middleway WV. He was given the estate by George Washington for his service at Braddock Field in Pittsburgh.
 

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Hannibal

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NB Forrest slave ownership details show he owned prime age range individuals, not family units, the average black family was 7 person in 1860, from the age groups and age of children, its most prob that there was only a single family unit of the 2 oldest having the 2 boys/twins. statistically, the average slave female had her first child at age 22.5 the next 2 years later unless the first one died, then its lower. Of all children born to slaves, 70% were to the age group 15 to 24, another 15% to the next age group of 25 to 29. While only suggestive there was only a single family unit, i dont think its safe to think of there being more.

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Hannibal

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I visit the Stonewall Jackson house all the time. It's on Braddock Ave up the street from the Union General Sheridan Headquarters. They say Stonewall Jackson had five slaves all with the last name of Jackson. His wife hated them as it's a small house and she wanted to be a standard housewife. So the Jackson 5 Slaves stayed at the Sheridan headquarters overnight. The Jackson house was owed by Catholic actress Mary Tyler Moore's family. Her grandfather was known as CSA Col Lewis T Moore. The Moore gravesite in Winchester VA. No one knows more about Stonewall Jackson then I do. I live on the French and Indian War Col William Rankin Estate 5 miles away near Middleway WV. He was given the estate by George Washington for his service at Braddock Field in Pittsburgh.
 
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