Was the American Civil War actually the American Self-coup?

TomEvans

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Did you read Lincoln's words? The last paragraph explains it all... the posted quotes are not facts...
What does that mean, " the posted quotes are not facts"?

That was the federal government's legal claim of historical fact, on which Congress claimed national union over the states, to authorize Total War and totalitarian suppression in the name of "silencing traitors" and "saving the national union."

Likewise the Supreme Court in Texas v. White (1869) did argue that the original 13 states had never been without a common political superior, and that the Union was not a voluntary compact among independent, sovereign states, but a perpetual union in which the states were always part of a larger political entity .

The Court did not argue that the original states surrendered sovereignty through the Constitution, but rather that they had never been fully sovereign in the first place — that the Union was not a loose confederation of independent states, but a single, unified nation with a central authority above the states .

This legal reasoning was used to justify the federal government's position that secession was illegal, based on the idea that the original states had never been sovereign and always had a political superior — the Union.
 

5fish

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Likewise the Supreme Court in Texas v. White (1869) did argue that the original 13 states had never been without a common political superior, and that the Union was not a voluntary compact among independent, sovereign states, but a perpetual union in which the states were always part of a larger political entity .
The court did not have to; it is assumed from day one that your 13 colonies were now the United States...

The Court did not argue that the original states surrendered sovereignty through the Constitution, but rather that they had never been fully sovereign in the first place — that the Union was not a loose confederation of independent states, but a single, unified nation with a central authority above the states
The constitution is supreme... yesterday, today, and into the future...
 

5fish

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This legal reasoning was used to justify the federal government's position that secession was illegal, based on the idea that the original states had never been sovereign and always had a political superior — the Union.
No legal expert would agree with you...
 

TomEvans

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No legal expert would agree with you...
That's a direct quote from Google AI, which drew it from the mainstream consensus of legal experts regarding Texas v. White.

The court did not have to; it is assumed from day one that your 13 colonies were now the United States...

The constitution is supreme... yesterday, today, and into the future...
The court claimed that the states formed a national union in 1776 from the start, just as Lincoln and Congress claimed in 1861; and the court said that the Constitution simply continued this national union.
 

5fish

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The court claimed that the states formed a national union in 1776 from the start, just as Lincoln and Congress claimed in 1861; and the court said that the Constitution simply continued this national union.
Those 13 colonies were not nation-states or independent republics, but were in a union based on the Westphalian system... today! Do you want to think of states as vassal client nations serving the United States Government?
 

TomEvans

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Those 13 colonies were not nation-states
Yes, they were declared to be free, sovereign and independent states by the Declaration of Independence:

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British crown and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved; and that, as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do.

This was discerned from what the Law of Nations defined in Book I, Chapter I, §11: “Of a state that has passed under the dominion of another:”


But a people that has passed under the dominion of another is no longer a state, and can no longer avail itself directly of the law of nations. Such were the nations and kingdoms which the Romans rendered subject to their empire; the generality even of those whom they honoured with the name of friends and allies no longer formed real states
. Within themselves, they were governed by their own laws and magistrates; but without, they were in every thing obliged to follow the orders of Rome; they dared not of themselves either to make war or contract alliances; and could not treat with nations.


Meanwhile The Declaration of Independence was framed in the language of the "Law of Nations," to justify the American colonies' separation from Great Britain to the world, and to gain international recognition and support. It argued that the colonies had the right, under the law of nature and of nature's God, to separate and form their own independent states. This established the new United States as independent actors with the power to engage in diplomacy, war, and commerce, just like any other sovereign nations.

Therefore since the states could “make war, contract alliances, and treat with other nations," and “do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do;” the states were not under the dominion of another, and thus were 13 separate sovereign nations.

And this was in the following context from the Law of Nations, §10. “Of states forming a federal republic:”


Finally, several sovereign and independent states may unite themselves together by a perpetual confederacy, without ceasing to be, each individually, a perfect state. They will together constitute a federal republic: their joint deliberations will not impair the sovereignty of each member, though they may, in certain respects, put some restraint on the exercise of it, in virtue of voluntary engagements. A person does not cease to be free and independent, when he is obliged to fulfill engagements which he has voluntarily contracted.
As such, the states simply formed an international union of (thirteen) separate sovereign nations— just like the United Nations or the European Union, after them; and each nation simply delegated powers to the United States as such a federal republic, being a “voluntary engagement among a perpetual confederacy” among separate sovereign nations, whose joint deliberations did not impair the sovereignty of each nation.

Meanwhile Lincoln re-wrote history to claim that the Declaration of Independence established a national union in 1776, that was political superior to the states:



July 4th Message to Congress:


Having never been States, either in substance or in name, outside of the Union, whence this magical omnipotence of "State rights," asserting a claim of power to lawfully destroy the Union itself?


Much is said about the "sovereignty" of the States, but the word even is not in the National Constitution, nor, as is believed, in any of the State constitutions. What is a "sovereignty" in the political sense of the term? Would it be far wrong to define it "a political community without a political superior"? Tested by this, no one of our States, except Texas, ever was a sovereignty; and even Texas gave up the character on coming into the Union, by which act she acknowledged the Constitution of the United States and the laws and treaties of the United States made in pursuance of the Constitution to be for her the supreme law of the land.


... y the Declaration of Independence... the 'United Colonies' were declared to be 'free and independent States;' but even then the object plainly was not to declare their independence of one another or of the Union, but directly the contrary...."

The States have their status in the Union, and they have no other legal status. If they break from this, they can only do so against law and by revolution.
So Lincoln falsely claimed that the Declaration of Independence declared a national union that political superior to the states-- and on that basis, he waged total war on non-complying states --by turning the majority-states against them, through totalitarian suppression of the truth.
And accordingly, the people will NEVER consent to their government as equals.
 
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5fish

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Yes, they were declared to be free, sovereign and independent states by the Declaration of Independence:
Why do you forget the United States part of the Declaration of Independence?
This was discerned from what the Law of Nations defined in Book I, Chapter I, §11: “Of a state that has passed under the dominion of another:”
A bone... they never pulled the trigger on nationhood for themselves...

The original thirteen colonies declared themselves independent sovereign states (like separate nations) through the Declaration of Independence and functioned somewhat independently under the Articles of Confederation, but they were often called "states" rather than full "nations" due to their union, with each retaining significant power while delegating some to a central Congress until the U.S. Constitution created a stronger federal nation.
 

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As such, the states simply formed an international union of (thirteen) separate sovereign nations—
If true ever true, the United States Constitution squishes anything you wish it to be...
 

5fish

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So Lincoln falsely claimed that the Declaration of Independence declared a national union that political superior to the states
This is the general historical view: you have never found anyone declaring their state to be a nation... find some...
 

TomEvans

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Why do you forget the United States part of the Declaration of Independence?
Because.....

inigo.jpg

The Declaration of Independence was framed in the language of the "Law of Nations," to justify the American colonies' separation from Great Britain to the world, and to gain international recognition and support. It argued that the colonies had the right, under the law of nature and of nature's God, to separate and form their own independent states. This established the new United States as independent actors with the power to engage in diplomacy, war, and commerce, just like any other sovereign nations.

Meanwhile The Declaration of Independence reads as follows:

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British crown and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved; and that, as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do.
This was discerned from what the Law of Nations defined in Book I, Chapter I, §11: “Of a state that has passed under the dominion of another:”

As such, the states simply formed an international union of (thirteen) separate sovereign nations— just like the United Nations or the European Union, after them; and each nation simply delegated powers to the United States as such a federal republic, being a “voluntary engagement among a perpetual confederacy” among separate sovereign nations, whose joint deliberations did not impair the sovereignty of each nation.


This was discerned from what the Law of Nations defined in Book I, Chapter I, §11: “Of a state that has passed under the dominion of another:”

But a people that has passed under the dominion of another is no longer a state, and can no longer avail itself directly of the law of nations. Such were the nations and kingdoms which the Romans rendered subject to their empire; the generality even of those whom they honoured with the name of friends and allies no longer formed real states. Within themselves, they were governed by their own laws and magistrates; but without, they were in every thing obliged to follow the orders of Rome; they dared not of themselves either to make war or contract alliances; and could not treat with nations.
Therefore since the states could “make war, contract alliances, and treat with other nations," and “do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do;” the states were not under the dominion of another, and thus were 13 separate sovereign nations.

And therefore this "Union" was in the following context from the Law of Nations, §10. “Of states forming a federal republic:”

Finally, several sovereign and independent states may unite themselves together by a perpetual confederacy, without ceasing to be, each individually, a perfect state. They will together constitute a federal republic: their joint deliberations will not impair the sovereignty of each member, though they may, in certain respects, put some restraint on the exercise of it, in virtue of voluntary engagements. A person does not cease to be free and independent, when he is obliged to fulfill engagements which he has voluntarily contracted.
As such, the states simply formed an international union of (thirteen) separate sovereign nations— just like the United Nations or the European Union, after them; and each nation simply delegated powers to the United States as such a federal republic, being a “voluntary engagement among a perpetual confederacy” among separate sovereign nations, whose joint deliberations did not impair the sovereignty of each nation.
 

TomEvans

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If true ever true, the United States Constitution squishes anything you wish it to be...
The US government does not claim this:

lincoln.png

So as shown here, the US government falsely claims that the states declared a national union in 1776 which was their political superior... and has claimed this ever since.

Meanwhile every state proved beyond ALL QUESTION, that it was an international union, c. 1787:

when they began SECEDING from said international Union-- to form ANOTHER international Union under the Constitution instead:

rhode island secession.png

So there they are: i.e. the states each "by its own mere motion, lawfully destroying the Union--" EACH EXACTLY as Lincoln said they could NOT do.

And this simply destroyed the Confederation, for the international Constitutional union-- and the US government never claims that THAT formed a national union

So the US government makes NO valid claim of national union by ANY state-- particularly since 11 states simply did the same thing AGAIN in 1860-1861, as they had done in 1787-1789: i.e. exercised their national sovereignty secede from an international union; to form another by ratifying its proposed Constitution.

South Carolina.png
 

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I introduced you to your familiar DiLorenzo and now Jefferson... I have to teach you about your own argument...

Thomas Jefferson's articulation of state nullification, primarily in the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798, arguing that sovereign states could declare federal laws unconstitutional and void within their borders, viewing the Constitution as a compact between states, not a supreme national law.

Key Aspects of Jefferson's Nullification Idea:
  • Origin: A response to the Federalist-passed Alien and Sedition Acts, which Jefferson saw as unconstitutional overreach.
  • Core Belief: The Constitution is a compact (agreement) between sovereign states, meaning states retain ultimate authority to interpret its limits.
  • The "Dictum": If the federal government passes a law beyond its delegated powers, it's "unauthoritative, void, and of no force".
  • Mechanism (1799): States have the "unquestionable right to judge of its infraction," and nullification is the "rightful remedy"
Judicial Rejection: The Supreme Court and federal courts have consistently rejected nullification, upholding the Supremacy Clause (federal law over state law) and judicial review.


To combat these constitutional usurpations, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison drafted the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions. In these Resolutions, Jefferson and Madison accused Congress of exceeding its powers and declared the Alien and Sedition Acts null and void. Times were so tense that Jefferson and Madison hid the fact of their authorship because they feared prosecution under the Sedition Act.
 

TomEvans

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I introduced you to your familiar DiLorenzo and now Jefferson... I have to teach you about your own argument...
You think I don't know these things?

I'm WAY ahead of you.


Kentuck y Resolutions redbox.png

And James Madison, while we're at it:

Madison Federalist 39-3.jpg

Report on the Virginia Resolutions.png redbox 4.png

And last but not least:

Madison Federalist 46 - redbox.jpg

So was Madison proposing that the majority of state representatives in Congress, decided what "the authority of state governments" was?

Because that was pretty much the DEFINITION of the federal government.

No, as he said in his Report on the Virginia Resolutions:

The states, then, being the parties to the constitutional compact, and in their sovereign capacity, it follows of necessity that there can be no tribunal, above their authority, to decide, in the last resort, whether the compact made by them be violated; and consequently, that, as the parties to it, they must themselves decide, in the last resort, such questions as may be of sufficient magnitude to require their interposition.
However true, therefore, it may be, that the judicial department is, in all questions submitted to it by the forms of the Constitution, to decide in the last resort, this resort must necessarily be deemed the last in relation to the authorities of the other departments of the government; not in relation to the rights of the parties to the constitutional compact, from which the judicial, as well as the other departments, hold their delegated trusts.
On any other hypothesis, the delegation of judicial power would annul the authority delegating it; and the concurrence of this department with the others in usurped powers, might subvert forever, and beyond the possible reach of any rightful remedy, the very Constitution which all were instituted to preserve.
And so it did.... in an 1861 self-coup by the international government among 34 sovereign nations, under the following revisionist history:
lincoln.png


And thus they were able to illegally seize de jure national sovereignty over the 34 sovereign nations, forcibly conquering an international union through Total War and Totalitarian Suppression of the truth.

sheep washington.jpgMT. RUSHMORE.png

1766248551468.png1766248594382.png

Lincoln lied, freedom died.

dec2-2.png
And consent, must be INFORMED consent-- and the states NEVER agreed to a national union, let alone one supremely ruled by government officials!
 

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