Was Gettysburg a Major Southern Defeat?

[Bilbobaggins]

My latest article argues that Gettysburg was a draw or only a minor defeat for the South; it was neither the high watermark for the Confederacy nor the turning of the tide for the American Civil War.

Was the Battle of Gettysburg Really a Major Defeat for the Confederacy? — History is Now Magazine, Podcasts, Blog and Books | Modern International and American history

The Battle of Gettysburg during the U.S. Civil War is usually considered a victory for the North; however, alternative arguments can be made. Here, Jeb Smith considers whether Gettysburg was really a major defeat for the Confederacy.

www.historyisnowmagazine.com

 

[jgoodguy]

My latest article argues that Gettysburg was a draw or only a minor defeat for the South; it was neither the high watermark for the Confederacy nor the turning of the tide for the American Civil War.

Was the Battle of Gettysburg Really a Major Defeat for the Confederacy? — History is Now Magazine, Podcasts, Blog and Books | Modern International and American history

The Battle of Gettysburg during the U.S. Civil War is usually considered a victory for the North; however, alternative arguments can be made. Here, Jeb Smith considers whether Gettysburg was really a major defeat for the Confederacy.

www.historyisnowmagazine.com

Lots of folks at the time had similar ideas. The loss of Vicksburg was thought to be more serious at the time. I personally think that Vicksburg was the greater loss for the CSA. The loot from Gettysburg helped the Army of Northern Virginia to keep fighting for another year. However since there were no successful follow up invasions, that suggest a high watermark. There was also a huge loss in men and officers in both Chancellorsville and Gettysburg and little time to retrain and replenish. The CSA still likely had the power to grind down the Union, but the era of big time invasions of the North was over. Sans that, post Gettysburg the CSA was in ebb tide.

 

[5fish]

You mentioned that Meade wanted to retreat after day 2, which is true, but his junior generals demanded he stay. Meade was always skittish at Gettysburg. He already had a plan called Pipe Creek, where he wanted to face Lee. He wanted to retreat from day one and set up his Pipe Creek plan. He stayed and won a battle because Lee had punched out his army against Meade's army field position. You know Meade and Lee played chess against each other when they were stationed together, so Meade knew Lee well, and he wanted to run.

General Meade’s Proposed Pipe Creek Line – The Cleveland Civil War Roundtable

www.clevelandcivilwarroundtable.com

It's the high water mark of Lee's army because his army lost its offensive ability to fight. Meade stayed in Virginia once Lee returned to Virginia. You should look at the Battle of Mine Run, where Meade Skittishness saved him once again. Lee may have drawn the Union army out of Virginia, but the argument that gave the farmers a breather is false, in my opinion, because the Shenandoah Valley was feeding Lee's army, not the areas where the Union Army stayed before and after Lee's invasion.

Battle of Mine Run - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[5fish]

I argue Lee punched the offensive ability of his army, and he had three good chances to show this... Battle of Mine Run would have been a test of this argument, but Meade got skittish and retreated. Lee's army at the Battle of the Wilderness flanked Grant twice and did little damage to Grant's army. Lee had the Battle of North Anna, but Lee got sick, and the battle fizzled out.

I want to point out that Lee never took the offensive against Grant during the Overland campaign after the Wilderness but chose to dig in at each battle. The historians want to use the battle of Ft. Harrison, where Lee's army lost its claws and teeth, but it happened at Gettysburg.

Fort Harrison

Alongside New Market Heights, the assault on Fort Harrison formed the second distinct stage at the Battle of Chaffin’s Farm, itself part of the lengthy...

www.battlefields.org

 

[diane]

The western theater of the war often mirrored the eastern theater - kind of bizarre when you think about it! Vicksburg falling at the same time as Gettysburg freed up the one general who did not have a fear of Robert E Lee - U S Grant. Grant was, as Shelby Foote put it, 'a head down fighter'. Lee was the more aggressive of the two, probably the most aggressive American general for that matter, but he was also a chess player. Grant was a brawler. It worked.

Myself, I have always felt the Confederacy was finished when Ft Donelson went down. That loss was felt clear across the CSA and gave the Union advantages it would have taken them years to gain if at all. We'll never know if A S Johnston's abilities were all they were cracked up to be since he had too many cooks in his kitchen and too big a kitchen, but he did have a workable plan. His loss may well have been a critical one, like the loss of Stonewall Jackson.

One important point - the Army of Northern Virginia never recovered from Gettysburg. It was one of the world's best small armies and had never been defeated, and their general had never been defeated. In fact, his belief in their invincibility was a big factor in his actions at Gettysburg. After Gettysburg, the mystique was dissolved.

 

[5fish]

My latest article argues that Gettysburg was a draw or only a minor defeat for the South; it was neither the high watermark for the Confederacy nor the turning of the tide for the American Civil War.

Was the Battle of Gettysburg Really a Major Defeat for the Confederacy? — History is Now Magazine, Podcasts, Blog and Books | Modern International and American history

The Battle of Gettysburg during the U.S. Civil War is usually considered a victory for the North; however, alternative arguments can be made. Here, Jeb Smith considers whether Gettysburg was really a major defeat for the Confederacy.

www.historyisnowmagazine.com

It is a good article. Why did you think Lee was able to give up Longstreet to Tennessee? Meade was not challenging Lee in Virginia, and Lee knew Meade skittishness and felt safe sending Longstreet West. Lee sent Early to the Shenandoah Valley and D.C., so Grant could send troops and relieve pressure on Lee in Peterburg. Lew Wallace should have gotten some praise for pulling together an army to meet Early.

Battle of Monocacy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You are right; Sherman took Atlanta in the Fall of 1864 and gave the election to Lincoln.

 

[jgoodguy]

Myself, I have always felt the Confederacy was finished when Ft Donelson went down. That loss was felt clear across the CSA and gave the Union advantages it would have taken them years to gain if at all. We'll never know if A S Johnston's abilities were all they were cracked up to be since he had too many cooks in his kitchen and too big a kitchen, but he did have a workable plan. His loss may well have been a critical one, like the loss of Stonewall Jackson.

When Donelson went down, it opened a pathway into the heart of the CSA. The Union could invade via the rivers instead of land. Johnson was the victim of defending everywhere meant defending nothing.

 

[diane]

When Donelson went down, it opened a pathway into the heart of the CSA. The Union could invade via the rivers instead of land. Johnson was the victim of defending everywhere meant defending nothing.

Agreed. Donelson was more important than Gettysburg. The loss of the two forts, Henry and Donelson, led directly to Shiloh. Union control of the river enabled Grant to add Buell's troops which was the win. The Confederates did well until Johnston was killed - Beauregard was disorganized and not aware of the real situation. Forrest was the only one who had discovered Buell's arrival and confirmed it, but he couldn't find Beauregard to tell him about it.

 

[5fish]

@Bilbobaggins ....

Are you writing your alternative Civil War history book? What is the premise?

 

[5fish]

 

[5fish]

My latest article argues that Gettysburg was a draw or only a minor defeat for the South;

If you knew Ottoman history their high water mark was the last battle of Vienna 1683 but it take years later know it was the beginning of the end, Mehmed IV failure. The Battle of Gettysburg is the high water mark of the Confederacy, Lee's failure.

In both cases it mark the end of expansion and a period of defensive warfare, lost of land and retreat. It took another 300 years or so to collapse but it took the Confederacy less than two years to become a footnote...

 

[LJMYERS]

Gettysburg seems to be a family fight if you follow this monument of the McKeesport 63rd Red Patch Unit under Major Gilbert Adams Hays. Two McKees in Pittsburgh. John McKee of McKeesport and Alexander McKee of McKees Rocks. Alexander McKee loved Native Americans and John McKee hated them. One was a Loyalist and the other Patriot. This was when Pittsburgh was part of Virginia and Richmond was it's Capital. First Monument at Gettysburg setup July 4 1873.

 

[Union8448]

There was no strategic result at Gettysburg. There was a logistical result by getting the Confederate livestock out of Virginia for several weeks. But the fact that the invasion occurred in the peak of summer weather should be taken as indication of how difficult it was for the Confederacy to feed its livestock and to properly equip its soldiers.
The Confederacy could not afford an attritional draw at that point in the war. By the time Virginia forces reached the Confederates in Georgia, Rosecrans' force was already in Chattanooga, which they never abandoned. Burnside's force has crossed into eastern Tennessee. Slightly later the US forces under Steele entered another Confederate state capital in Arkansas.
The separated Confederacy that existed after the draw at Gettysburg was not viable. The US controlled the Mississippi River and with it New Orleans. Chattel slavery was not viable. Within a few months cotton from other sources in the world would begin to arrive in England. The cotton crisis would end, even if the cotton shortage continued.
The Confederates in Virginia may have considered Gettysburg a minor set back. But their knowledge of the continental nature of the war, and the success of the US in the west and far west, was deficient, if not intentionally obtuse.

 

[diane]

There was no strategic result at Gettysburg. There was a logistical result by getting the Confederate livestock out of Virginia for several weeks. But the fact that the invasion occurred in the peak of summer weather should be taken as indication of how difficult it was for the Confederacy to feed its livestock and to properly equip its soldiers.
The Confederacy could not afford an attritional draw at that point in the war. By the time Virginia forces reached the Confederates in Georgia, Rosecrans' force was already in Chattanooga, which they never abandoned. Burnside's force has crossed into eastern Tennessee. Slightly later the US forces under Steele entered another Confederate state capital in Arkansas.
The separated Confederacy that existed after the draw at Gettysburg was not viable. The US controlled the Mississippi River and with it New Orleans. Chattel slavery was not viable. Within a few months cotton from other sources in the world would begin to arrive in England. The cotton crisis would end, even if the cotton shortage continued.
The Confederates in Virginia may have considered Gettysburg a minor set back. But their knowledge of the continental nature of the war, and the success of the US in the west and far west, was deficient, if not intentionally obtuse.

Gettysburg was certainly the last time Lee's army could threaten the North. Lee was on the defense from that point on, he rarely was able to take the offensive or pick his own ground. Scott's Anaconda Plan was effective - Davis did not pay enough attention to the need for a naval war, which needs a navy. All the Southern shipbuilding was done in the North. There wasn't sufficient naval power to protect the rivers or the ports, which fell quickly. There were ideas of continuing the war from the Trans-Mississippi, or even from Mexico, but this was mainly from desperate people not wanting to find out what the US government would do about them. But there was never a rise in the morale of the Southern people after Lee was defeated at Gettysburg. He was their ultimate hero. The destruction of Lee's undefeatable myth was a win by itself of immeasurable value to the Union.

 

[LJMYERS]

My point. The army marched on Peaches and the object was the Peach Trees. Everyone who was at the Peach Orchard worked for a Peach Canning Company in Pittsburgh. Captain Robert Hampton and his Pittsburgh Battery at the Peach Orchard. You needed Peaches, Shoes and Guns to fight a war in that order.

 

[5fish]

Captain Robert Hampton

The Captain Hampton had passed before the Battle of Gettysburg... but I found this great story worth a read about photos of the unit, and an artillery piece was sent to Porta Rico in 1899, during the Spanish-American War... @LJMYERS the writer is from Pittsburgh... This photo starts the story...

Hampton’s Battery of Pittsburgh at Gettysburg, Puerto Rico

In “Hampton’s Battery at Gettysburg and Puerto Rico,” Luther traces a post-war reunion photo taken at Gettysburg by W.H. Tipton to Pittsburgh, Pa.

www.militaryimagesmagazine-digital.com

 

[diane]

My point. The army marched on Peaches and the object was the Peach Trees. Everyone who was at the Peach Orchard worked for a Peach Canning Company in Pittsburgh. Captain Robert Hampton and his Pittsburgh Battery at the Peach Orchard. You needed Peaches, Shoes and Guns to fight a war in that order.

Peaches, shoes and guns? Understandable but the need for peaches to wage war you're going to have to explain!

 

[5fish]

Captain Robert Hampton

The Battery was named after Hampton's death...

https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~tandnmca/genealogy/civilwar/hamptongrave1.html

 

[LJMYERS]

Simple. Doctors were not assigned to cut off arms and legs. Army Troops marching on Hardtack and Coffee died within two weeks without Vitamin C. Any sailor would know the signs of Scurvy. From the records of lemon sucking CSA General Stonewall Jackson and Doctor Hunter McGuire.

 

[5fish]

Here Allegheny City, PA.

https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~tandnmca/genealogy/civilwar/hampbattery.html

CPT Robert Brown Hampton (1814-1863) - Find a...

Civil War Union Army Officer. He commanded Battery F of the Pennsylvania Volunteer Light Artillery during the Civil War. He was killed in command of his battery at the May 1863 Battle of Chancellorsville. On May 29, 1871, the Hampton Battery Monument was dedicated to the memory of Capt. Robert...

www.findagrave.com