Union statues in the Southwest also honor the war against Native Americans

byron ed

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Forgive my obtuseness, but you haven't been saying "overwhelmingly white." You've repeated ad nauseam "only legacy whites." I do know that our establishment has always been predominately white as has been our general population. I also know that since the Civil War it has never been only white. But it has always been THE ESTABLISHMENT regardless of demographics. Therefore it is categorically incorrect to assert that "only legacy whites" made the decisions whereof we speak and 100% accurate to say that the establishment did make them.
I forgive you your obtuseness then, but hey we're getting there.

It comes down to you're not liking my shorthand "only legacy whites." I can ditch the shorthand, which was only ever for the purpose of brevity to begin with, and go with "overwhelmingly white."

But conceding that an "overwhelmingly white" establishment made most of the decisions has to mean that it's not nearly 100% accurate to say it was the entirety of THE ESTABLISHMENT that made the decisions. (You'll note that I had already pointed out that no social metric can ever be 100% anyway, but let's leave that where it is). In truth it's more accurate to say that the overwhelmingly white component (legacy whites) of THE ESTABLISHMENT made most of the actual decisions, like naming things after defeated enemies.

So now we're in the territory of mere semantics. I understand that you're invested now in something having to be 100% accurate. So how about "the overwhelmingly white component (legacy whites) of THE ESTABLISHMENT made most of the actual decisions, like naming things after defeated enemies." That gives you your 100% accurate thing.
 
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Jim Klag

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In truth it's more accurate to say that the overwhelmingly white component (legacy whites) of THE ESTABLISHMENT made most of the actual decisions, like naming things after defeated enemies.
Let's not say that. It must be my old engineer's soul, but I am on a quest for precision. And you really have an obsessively pathological need to use the phrase "legacy white." Did your legacy white momma deprive you of your legacy white pacifier? However it was constituted (all white, mostly white, predominately white, overwhelmingly white), the establishment at that time in history made the decisions - even you can't split that hair any more finely. At whatever point in history a monument was decided upon, the local, county, state and federal establishments made the decision on the form and location of the monument. It is a fact that Native Americans commissioned monuments for Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. Their establishment is comprehensively not all white.
 

byron ed

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...It is a fact that Native Americans commissioned monuments for Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. Their establishment is comprehensively not all white...
That's interesting, and yes let's now delve into the less common naming conventions in this Country. I'm up for it.

I found it interesting how common it was to name things after defeated enemies in this Country, including native American leaders but also Confederate leaders, apparently nearly all it done in the time of the legacy white establishment, but we've covered that.

But also there's things abroad that were named after American notables. I saw a prominent statue of Lincoln in Edinborough Scotland when I was there. Is there a statue or a street named after Teddy Roosevelt in Cuba?, or MacArthur in the Philippines?, or Franklin in France?, or Commodore Perry in China?, and are they now being vandalized or torn down? Why is there a monument to invading Japanese soldiers on an Alaskan island?
 
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O' Be Joyful

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... it’s important to note that Arnold gained his command at West Point by dint of his previous battlefield service. Arnold was a brave, daring and aggressive commander. He had helped seize Fort Ticonderoga, participated in the invasion of Quebec and led American naval forces at the Battle of Valcour Island.

General Arnold’s greatest moment came during the Saratoga campaign, which ended with the surrender of an entire British army. The senior American commander, Horatio Gates, was often indecisive and shy of battle. Arnold, in contrast, was eager for battle. He personally led a successful charge on a British redoubt. During that fight, Arnold was shot in the leg and his horse fell on him.

Had Benedict Arnold died that day, he would likely be known as one of the great heroes of the American Revolutionary War. There would be towns, counties and schools named for him. ;)
 

5fish

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Here is a story of General Wright... Against Indians...

 

diane

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There's another s o b. I don't know if he was related to the psycho Capt Ben Wright but they were sure on board with kill 'em all - period. The colonel died strangely, by the way, when the Brother Jonathan went down off the Oregon coast. It's a famous shipwreck full of sunken gold - believe it was recovered in the late 90s - but it was the most deadly shipwreck on the West Coast for quite some time. 244 went down, 19 came out. The skipper - Capt John Wright. (Got to find out if these Wrights were related!)
 

5fish

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Here is the List of soldiers and Indian scouts who won, Medals Of Honor during the Indian Wars...

 

MattL

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Thanks, Pat, for pointing up this historian. She has some interesting views and interpretations on the West. Not too many - in fact, I don't know of any - historians connect the South and the West, but Southern influence out here has been very strong. Dixie in Colorado - Southerners tried to find out if cotton grew in the Colorado plains. Agricultural colonies in Southern California - Tyree Bell, Forrest's general, growing tomatoes in Fresno! The fall of King Cotton in the South had a profound effect in California, and on the culture.
A good point. In essence I am mostly a Southwest product of the South in that regard. I was born in Arizona though the majority of my ancestry is Southern. For context my Dad would make an example of that in California since he was born in California but the majority of his ancestry is from the South as well.
 

Leftyhunter

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Thanks, Pat, for pointing up this historian. She has some interesting views and interpretations on the West. Not too many - in fact, I don't know of any - historians connect the South and the West, but Southern influence out here has been very strong. Dixie in Colorado - Southerners tried to find out if cotton grew in the Colorado plains. Agricultural colonies in Southern California - Tyree Bell, Forrest's general, growing tomatoes in Fresno! The fall of King Cotton in the South had a profound effect in California, and on the culture.

The monument building that went throughout the South came here as well. Look at any map of the West and it's not just statues - towns named Sheridan, Custer, Rawlins, Canby, Sturgis. Names of places - Bloody Lake, Murderer's Bar. How about the statue to John C Fremont and the Bear Republic. In short, when you start asking these questions you come to quick sand almost immediately - you're questioning the fabric of this nation.

And, there's perspective. If I was to throw a statue in the harbor it wouldn't be Christopher Columbus, it would be Stanford University's David Starr Jordan. Why, when they both did the same thing? Columbus was straight up about it - these people will make great slaves and if they don't we'll kill 'em. Clear and strangely impersonal, simple conquest. Jordan believed he was following philanthropic values and improving the human condition by improving humans...which meant getting rid of the goofy ones... The most evil peacenik ever!
If we can breed dogs for superior performance we can do the same for people. As Chris Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes himself an ACW vet said in a case involving forced sterilization " three generations of impiciles is enough".
Leftyhunter
 

rittmeister

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If we can breed dogs for superior performance we can do the same for people.
really? who's going to decide what's superior?

you are not on thin ice here - you are in the water and the whole lake is frozen over
 

5fish

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If we can breed dogs for superior performance we can do the same for people. As Chris Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes himself an ACW vet said in a case involving forced sterilization " three generations of impiciles is enough".
Leftyhunter
If we had been breeding humans "Do you think you make the cut"? I have my doubts...
 

diane

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If we can breed dogs for superior performance we can do the same for people. As Chris Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes himself an ACW vet said in a case involving forced sterilization " three generations of impiciles is enough".
Leftyhunter
Buck vs Bell 1927 was a landmark case that allowed tens of thousands of forced sterilizations of people in institutions. Getting to be called an imbecile was not hard, by the way - an epileptic would fit the bill, or a woman having estrogen problems.

Here is Justice Holmes' opinion:


The ramifications of this decision were catastrophic. For example, the argument was made as late as the 1970s that Mexican migration was undesirable because they tended to be Indians of low intelligence, poor sanitation and zero education, (sez them) and the state of California happily sterilized as many Latina and Indian women as they could, at least until Madrigal v Quilligan. For California Natives the sterilization continued well into the 90s - every Indian woman with an ache somewhere was given a hysterectomy. The over-use of this procedure was finally brought to an end with another complaint.

By the way, you ought to look at what dog breeders have done to some once wonderful breeds - like the bull dog!
 

Leftyhunter

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Buck vs Bell 1927 was a landmark case that allowed tens of thousands of forced sterilizations of people in institutions. Getting to be called an imbecile was not hard, by the way - an epileptic would fit the bill, or a woman having estrogen problems.

Here is Justice Holmes' opinion:


The ramifications of this decision were catastrophic. For example, the argument was made as late as the 1970s that Mexican migration was undesirable because they tended to be Indians of low intelligence, poor sanitation and zero education, (sez them) and the state of California happily sterilized as many Latina and Indian women as they could, at least until Madrigal v Quilligan. For California Natives the sterilization continued well into the 90s - every Indian woman with an ache somewhere was given a hysterectomy. The over-use of this procedure was finally brought to an end with another complaint.

By the way, you ought to look at what dog breeders have done to some once wonderful breeds - like the bull dog!
It can be abused but in the US low income low IQ people are subsidized to have children so we get a nice high crime rate and law abiding high income people have far to few children this our nation is collapsing.
Leftyhunter
 

Leftyhunter

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Buck vs Bell 1927 was a landmark case that allowed tens of thousands of forced sterilizations of people in institutions. Getting to be called an imbecile was not hard, by the way - an epileptic would fit the bill, or a woman having estrogen problems.

Here is Justice Holmes' opinion:


The ramifications of this decision were catastrophic. For example, the argument was made as late as the 1970s that Mexican migration was undesirable because they tended to be Indians of low intelligence, poor sanitation and zero education, (sez them) and the state of California happily sterilized as many Latina and Indian women as they could, at least until Madrigal v Quilligan. For California Natives the sterilization continued well into the 90s - every Indian woman with an ache somewhere was given a hysterectomy. The over-use of this procedure was finally brought to an end with another complaint.

By the way, you ought to look at what dog breeders have done to some once wonderful breeds - like the bull dog!
Idiocracy https://g.co/kgs/NXjofj
Basically I am making the same argument that Mike Judge made brilliantly in 2006.
Leftyhunter
 

diane

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@Leftyhunter Lefty, has anybody ever told you you belong to a class of people who should be allowed to die? Ever have a doctor write on your medical file minimal care because your race is inferior? Ever have a so-called health care professional congratulate you for marrying a white guy (who isn't) because it shows you've accepted assimilation? Kind of sucks to be on the receiving end of this eugenics program!
 

Leftyhunter

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It's satire, Lefty. Like Beavis and Butthead. Judge is good at it!
But all satire is based on reality. Mike Judge was simply using humor to make a valid criticism of modern US society.
Leftyhunter
 

Leftyhunter

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@Leftyhunter Lefty, has anybody ever told you you belong to a class of people who should be allowed to die? Ever have a doctor write on your medical file minimal care because your race is inferior? Ever have a so-called health care professional congratulate you for marrying a white guy (who isn't) because it shows you've accepted assimilation? Kind of sucks to be on the receiving end of this eugenics program!
Valid criticisms and if a doctor wrote that race or ethnic group X should be allowed to die should be sued . On the other hand if two low IQ
people with extensive criminal records procreate maybe sterilization is the most economic and humane course of action. The apple does not fall far from the tree.
Leftyhunter
 
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