The Wizard of the Saddle

diane

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Thank you to JGG for setting up this forum dedicated to a unique Civil War general. We should have some fine debates and discussions here!

Controversial, legendary, heroic, wicked, genius, temperamental - just about any descriptive word fits some aspect of Nathan Bedford Forrest. He was one of the most effective, innovative and feared cavalrymen of the war, and at the same time one of the most difficult, insubordinate and unrelenting. There was none of the cavalier about Forrest, no swords and roses. A natural leader, he was strong willed, clear minded, extremely smart as well as tough, disciplined, ordered. A man of extremely limited education and no military experience, he kept the Union's attention with numerous successful raids and campaigns, some brilliantly executed - such as Brice's Crossroads, universally acknowledged to be his masterpiece. Forrest's personal life before the war and after the war is very complicated - he was a slave trader and a klansman, an alderman of Memphis and a constable, a gambler and a shootist, a dedicated family man and deeply loving husband, a dedicated warrior of the Confederacy who put his blood and treasure into that cause. It died and he accepted that, accepted that slavery was gone, and that the South he knew was no more. He never gave up the dream of some day seeing a Southern nation. His life in that complicated world of change and defeat will forever be the source of much contention and evaluation.

It is the study of such an individual that gives us an understanding of who we are today. In current times, Nathan Bedford Forrest is the symbol of racism, white supremacy and terror; and also the symbol of heritage, history, and - one might say strangely - of hope. By understanding this man, we can understand better who we all are, how we came to be, and what we can do together to make the future better. If Forrest, the very flawed slave trading klansman, could come to a point in his life where he could say with sincerity to a black audience, "We live in the same country, we were born on the same soil, we breathe the same air - why can we not be brothers and sisters?" then we know we can all come to a better understanding of ourselves, not just as Americans but as human beings.
 

5fish

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I just notice this sub forum...
 

diane

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:D This where the good, the bad and the downright ugly can be discussed! Whatever one may think of Forrest, at least all can agree he won't bore anyone...
 

5fish

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I like to point out...

I just want to bring up a minor point that many have over looked.

Gen. Grant only ever single out one cavalry man for death. It was not Morgan, or Forrest, or Hampton. It was Stuart that Gen. Grant single out for death.

If Gen. Lee admired Stuart and Gen. Grant single him out for death, would this not make him the greatest cavalier of the Civil war? The two greatest generals of the war had him on their A-list...

If we go by what the two greatest generals of the Civil war thought then J.E.B. Stuart was greatest cavalier of the Civil War......YEH!!
 

5fish

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I like to point out... Wilson...

I see all those who worship of the highwayman Forrest have forgotten one thing.

I have notice that you Forrest worshipers seem to have forgotten a Union general James Wilson who easily check the thug Forrest during the Hood Franklin to Nashville Campaign.

Not only did Union cavalryman James Wilson not only check the murder Forrest but went on to terrorized AL., MS.. and GA. with his cavalry raids until May of 1865.

Where was the over-hyped Forrest when Wilson's cavalry was romping cross the south taken Selma, Columbus and destroying the infrastructure of those Southern states.

Those who worship the criminal Forrest as the best cavalry man. You all must acknowledge that James Wilson is the best cavalry man of the war for he easily outperformed Forrest time and time again....


Change your heathen ways and worship Wilson as the best cavalry man of the civil war...

The amazing thing is Wilson only became a cavalry man in 1864, before that an engineer.
 

diane

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As the Keeper of the Forrest Shrine, I cannot commit heresy! (But Wilson was a damn good cavalryman.) I want to get a good post up on him, by the way. He and Forrest had dinner together just before Selma - Wilson was trying to mine some information out of Forrest and found he wasn't as good at poker as Forrest. But, he finally asked an embarrassing question. "Ahh...I've misplaced one of my officers. Do you happen to know where Croxton is?" Forrest pointed. "He's up that road about 12 miles." After the war, Forrest and Wilson were good friends, visiting each other often.
 

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Neverwinter Nights 2: Platinum on sale with Steam for 10 bucks today. Plus some other pretty good ones for around 5. Dead Space and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Combo around 5 bucks each.
 

rittmeister

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Neverwinter Nights 2: Platinum on sale with Steam for 10 bucks today. Plus some other pretty good ones for around 5. Dead Space and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Combo around 5 bucks each.
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5fish

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diane

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I like to point out...

I just want to bring up a minor point that many have over looked.

Gen. Grant only ever single out one cavalry man for death. It was not Morgan, or Forrest, or Hampton. It was Stuart that Gen. Grant single out for death.

If Gen. Lee admired Stuart and Gen. Grant single him out for death, would this not make him the greatest cavalier of the Civil war? The two greatest generals of the war had him on their A-list...

If we go by what the two greatest generals of the Civil war thought then J.E.B. Stuart was greatest cavalier of the Civil War......YEH!!
I have always thought that Sheridan's expedition involving Yellow Tavern was not so much about the fortifications around Richmond but more an excuse to go after Stuart. He knew he would need a lot of troops for that job, and also that job could not be said out loud! Jeb, for his part, had a premonition - he spoke to Blackburn, his aide, about doing some personal business for him. Blackburn deferred, saying this was the kind of personal business that should be done himself after the next battle. "Oh," said Stuart, "I will not live through the next battle." The next battle was Yellow Tavern.

Forrest was certain he would be killed before the war was over and was, of all the Confederate generals, the most surprised to find himself alive at the end!
 

Tom

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I like to point out... Wilson...

You all must acknowledge that James Wilson is the best cavalry man of the war for he easily outperformed Forrest time and time again....
...only when he outnumbered Forrest 5-to-1.
 
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5fish

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...only when he outnumbered Forrest 5-to-1.
Give me a battle that supports your words... No one talks about Forrest's defeat at Franklin...


Wilson's division reattatched itself to General George Thomas' Army of the Cumberland, where he became one of the few Union cavalrymen to defeat General Nathan Bedford Forrest on the open field during the Battle of Franklin. From there, he commanded another raid, one of the largest cavalry-only actions in the war, through Georgia, capturing both Selma, Alabama and Columbus, Georgia, regarded as the final battle in the entire war.

I am claiming Wilson Vs Forrest at the Battle of Franklin has been expunged from history... I am trying to find it... @diane

I found this about the retreat from Nashville... a forgotten change by Wilson...

.

Wilson ordered a frontal attack on the Confederate line and sent brigades to swing around the line’s flank. Around 200 cavalrymen swiftly advanced south down Columbia Pike toward the center of the Confederate line in a column of fours, sabers drawn.

........

After the two-day Battle of Nashville on December 15 and 16, where Hood’s Army was thoroughly defeated by Maj. Gen. George Thomas’s federals, the Army of Tennessee found themselves in a desperate retreat back the way they came, through Brentwood and Franklin on December 17. A few miles north of Franklin, the Confederate rear guard led by Lt. Gen. Stephen D. Lee, greatly outnumbered, fought federal cavalry at Hollow Tree Gap in the early morning hours of a cold and dreary Saturday. The desperate rear guard then moved south to the front of Franklin, where James Wilson’s cavalry, in one of the largest yet least-known cavalry charges of the war, pressured the rear guard to the Harpeth River while federal troops crossed and pushed Lee’s men through the town. Another stand was made around noon south at Winstead Hill, ironically the very place where General Hood observed his troops step off at the beginning of the battle of Franklin weeks earlier. Here, General Lee was wounded, and command of the rear guard handed off to Maj. Gen. Carter Stevenson.
 

Tom

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"I do not know where Forrest is; he may have gone east, but, no doubt, will strike our flank and rear again soon.
Wilson is entirely unable to cope with him."


uabletocope.jpg
 

5fish

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I found this newspaper report from Franklin only one Forrest being driven off...


NASHVILLE, Thursday, Dec. 1. Parties who have arrived from the front, and who witnessed the battle of yesterday, describe the attack of the rebel forces as desperate. Four charges were made upon the Federal masked batteries in columns four lines deep. Each time the rebels were repulsed with fearful loss. The fort is on the north bank of the river, opposite the town, extending up the river, and encircling the town was the line of masked batteries. Eye-witnesses say that this engagement, in desperation and furious fighting, was hardly equaled by the battle of Stone River. FORREST in person was on the field rallying his men. A rumor is in circulation that he was killed, but it lacks confirmation. About 7 o’clock last night heavy reinforcements reached SCHOFIELD, which caused a complete rout of the rebel forces. The city to-day is full of fleeing residents of Williamson and other counties south. They state HOOD it gathering up all the horses, hogs and mules that he can find, and sending them south. There is great panic among the negroes in the counties south of Nashville. Numbers are fleeing to the city for protection

It sounds like his last days he was being beaten... regularly...



He would respond with raids against Memphis and Johnsonville, Tennessee, before linking up with forces under General John Bell Hood in November 1864. Forrest participated in the Confederate defeat at the Second Battle of Franklin before suffering another loss at the Third Battle of Murfreesboro in December. After Hood’s beleaguered Army of Tennessee was routed at the Battle of Nashville, Forrest led rearguard operations during the retreat into Mississippi. Promoted to lieutenant general in February 1865, Forrest would oppose Union General James H. Wilson during his raid into the Deep South but was defeated at the Battle of Selma in April 1865. He then disbanded his weakened force in May 1865 following the surrender of the Confederacy’s major armies.
 

5fish

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"I do not know where Forrest is; he may have gone east, but, no doubt, will strike our flank and rear again soon.
Wilson is entirely unable to cope with him."


View attachment 14319
Read post #14 is seems the next day Wilson defeated Forrest... I like your find...
 

diane

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Franklin was a major disaster of epic proportions and cost the Confederacy a large number of good generals - one of them Patrick Cleburne. At this kind of a battle, it's a wonder Forrest wasn't laid out on the McGavock back porch with the rest. As it was, he did a very good job under very poor circumstances - he forced his way across the Harpeth and very nearly turned the Union's left flank. (Flank actions were Forrest's best.) Wilson was able to push him back across the river because of superior fire power - his troops were all armed with Spencers. These were the guns the Confederates complained about - the Yanks could load them on Monday and fire until Sunday! This kind of superior force was what gave the day to Wilson. Had his troops been armed like to Forrest's, the Confederates would have gained that advantage and Cheatham's troops would likely have done better. Forrest being pushed back across the river was a final and fatal blow. He had a knack for saving the day with his aggressiveness and personal leadership. The defeat at Franklin, though, has to be laid directly at the feet of Hood. Spring Hill might have gone better as well if Hood had used Forrest better. Forrest knew Schofield was sliding on by and lamented that all he needed was one brigade to throw across the road!

By this stage of the war, no Confederates were winning. The Confederacy was on the down bound express.
 

diane

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...only when he outnumbered Forrest 5-to-1.
That was true at Selma! At Franklin, though, it was Forrest who outnumbered Wilson. Schofield underestimated Wilson - I think he believed Forrest's troops were also armed with Spencers. He had a large number but not enough to make the difference. (He swiped as many as he could, too.) Wilson also understood Forrest better than most of his opponents - he made a point of studying how the general thought rather than what he did. Just as Lee once said about the Union constantly shifting generals in the AoP - one day they will light on a general who will know how to defeat me!
 

5fish

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It looks like Forrest set a trap but the Yankees did not bite and then the next day the Yankees set a trap and routed Bate's men... I like how Forrest always gets an out...


Tactical misinformation ("bad intelligence") was a factor in an embarrassing 1864 defeat for Nathan Bedford Forrest in Rutherford County. In contrast, his Union rival obtained valuable information on the Confederate battle strategy from a local "loyalist."
 

diane

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Third Murfreesboro was a total face palm for Forrest but it saved him from being at Franklin! Getting his rear handed to him by a guy who had lost a whole division and was sent west to get him out from under foot has to be the nadir of Forrest's military experience. Milroy of all people!

Robert E Lee had a similar experience about this time of the war - his beloved and reliable Second South Carolina did exactly what Forrest's troops did - they broke and ran and no amount of rallying by a charismatic commander could get them to stand. Forrest sat on his horse swinging his sword at the men, who were ducking and bobbing like rabbits - nobody knew if they were getting the flat side or the sharp end! Lee tried blocking his fleeing soldiers and got yelled at, "Out of the way, old man! You don't know what you are doing!" The troops, especially the crack troops, were getting battle fatigue big time.

Lee didn't have to shoot his color bearer, though...
 

diane

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Just to clarify: Forrest was at the battle of Franklin but off in a corner, as it were. The night before there had been a very tense conference with Hood, and Hood had - more or less - stuck Forrest out in left field. He then was sent raiding. As I mentioned before, Hood could certainly have made much better use of this cavalryman!
 
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