The National Defense Authorization Bill: Renaming army bases.

[rittmeister]

Now, do you consider the German Northern crusades unjust bringing the faith to the pagans... Did you not make their lives better in the end... that the issue we did not make Native lives better once the wats were over...

double-plus-bollocks

 

[5fish]

double-plus-bollocks

Double...? For bringing the faith to the pagans...

 

[5fish]

No offense, 5fish, but stripping Indian names off of stuff is going to be a major challenge! We'll have to rename at least ten states for starters... You don't think we were Americans by birth, do you? Why would the United States make treaties with its own people? Probably because they weren't its own people but sovereign nations.

Here where I disagree with the sovereign nation's... They were tribes... They were divided and conquered by United State government...

 

[diane]

Here where I disagree with the sovereign nation's... They were tribes... They were divided and conquered by United State government...

The United States government would disagree with you. The Constitution mentions the 'nations' of Indian people, and the US government makes treaties with nations, not tribes or bands or any group. There were a number of confederacies in the East - very well organized and very powerful. In the Southwest, the Pueblos maintained their independence throughout the Spanish, Mexican and American occupations. Comancheria was independent even through Texan nationhood. Other nations recognized Native nations by making treaties - Britain, Spain, France, Germany, Canada.

 

[5fish]

We defended our land. There is precisely zero difference between the two actions.

I can argue you are incorrect... The British did not invade to conquer us ... Unlike we did invade to conquer...

 

[Jim Klag]

I can argue you are incorrect... The British did not invade to conquer us ... Unlike we did invade to conquer...

No you can't. The British came and burned and pillaged and we defended ourselves. Ditto the Indians when we burned and pillaged.

 

[Jim Klag]

The United States government would disagree with you. The Constitution mentions the 'nations' of Indian people, and the US government makes treaties with nations, not tribes or bands or any group. There were a number of confederacies in the East - very well organized and very powerful. In the Southwest, the Pueblos maintained their independence throughout the Spanish, Mexican and American occupations. Comancheria was independent even through Texan nationhood. Other nations recognized Native nations by making treaties - Britain, Spain, France, Germany, Canada.

You are 100% correct. Read this @5fish . It underlines that the treaty is with the Sioux Nation. This is the original.

 

[rittmeister]

Double...? For bringing the faith to the pagans...

why not for supressing the religious believes of the indigenous people?

 

[rittmeister]

I can argue you are incorrect... The British did not invade to conquer us ... Unlike we did invade to conquer...

you might call it a raid (burning down their housing and stealing their food) - just like custer

 

[5fish]

You are 100% correct. Read this @5fish . It underlines that the treaty is with the Sioux Nation. This is the original.

I know our government used the word "sovereign nation". Let the cat out of the bag, North American Indian tribes were stone age tribes for I have looked up metal working and they did not have any... There was some copper in the Great Lakes, there was some Iron in the Northwest and there was no Metal Alloy work at all: like bronze...

If you like stone age society, loose network of tribes has the same modern definition "sovereign nation". The definition:

The supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable power by which an independent state is governed and from which all specific political powers are derived; the intentional independence of a state, combined with the right and power of regulating its internal affairs without foreign interference.

Here the are nations in name only with they came out talk to foreign powers... Native Peoples have Tribal Sovereignty not Nation Sovereignty...

https://www.paumatribe.com/government/tribal-sovereignty/

The Marshall trilogy, a series of three Supreme Court cases decided by Chief Justice John Marshall beginning in the 1830’s, set forth the legal framework for defining Tribal sovereignty. In defining tribal sovereign powers, Justice Marshall described tribes as “domestic dependent nations,” meaning that although tribes were “distinct independent political communities,” they remained subject to the paternalistic powers of the United States. Thus, Indian tribes possess internal governmental power over all affairs within the tribe, but lack external authorities to engage in relationships with foreign nations. It is important to note that state governments do not possess authority over tribes and the powers to “expand” or “contract” tribal sovereign authority rests solely within the power of the federal government. Thus, sovereignty also means that states are precluded from interfering with the tribes in their self-governance, while at the same time the United States congress reserves plenary power to change the scope and definition of tribal sovereignty.

Native Peoples Tribes are more like modern unions than nations...

 

[5fish]

why not for supressing the religious believes of the indigenous people?

I assume your are against the German Teutonic Knights efforts to expand Germany's and God's borders...

 

[Jim Klag]

I know our government used the word "sovereign nation". Let the cat out of the bag, North American Indian tribes were stone age tribes for I have looked up metal working and they did not have any... There was some copper in the Great Lakes, there was some Iron in the Northwest and there was no Metal Alloy work at all: like bronze...

If you like stone age society, loose network of tribes has the same modern definition "sovereign nation". The definition:

The supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable power by which an independent state is governed and from which all specific political powers are derived; the intentional independence of a state, combined with the right and power of regulating its internal affairs without foreign interference.

Here the are nations in name only with they came out talk to foreign powers... Native Peoples have Tribal Sovereignty not Nation Sovereignty...

https://www.paumatribe.com/government/tribal-sovereignty/

The Marshall trilogy, a series of three Supreme Court cases decided by Chief Justice John Marshall beginning in the 1830’s, set forth the legal framework for defining Tribal sovereignty. In defining tribal sovereign powers, Justice Marshall described tribes as “domestic dependent nations,” meaning that although tribes were “distinct independent political communities,” they remained subject to the paternalistic powers of the United States. Thus, Indian tribes possess internal governmental power over all affairs within the tribe, but lack external authorities to engage in relationships with foreign nations. It is important to note that state governments do not possess authority over tribes and the powers to “expand” or “contract” tribal sovereign authority rests solely within the power of the federal government. Thus, sovereignty also means that states are precluded from interfering with the tribes in their self-governance, while at the same time the United States congress reserves plenary power to change the scope and definition of tribal sovereignty.

Native Peoples Tribes are more like modern unions than nations...

Completely incorrect on every possible level. Our government made actual formal treaties with the Native People, ergo they are a nation. They didn't need to have forges of their own for iron working. We white folk provided them with all the modern weaponry they would need. Ask the 7th Cavalry at Little Bighorn who were outgunned by the Sioux and Cheyenne warriors. Most Indian bands smelted copper, silver, tin and lead. Steel required too high heat and more complex chemistry. They did still use flint for arrowheads, but these were beautifully made and very lethal.

 

[rittmeister]

I assume your are against the German Teutonic Knights efforts to expand Germany's and God's borders...

doesn't matter what i think - it happened some time ago, and then everybody who could did it anyway

... it matters after the age of enlightenment, though. you will find enough shit to throw at me there easily (you don't even need to invoke them nazis)

 

[rittmeister]

I know our government used the word "sovereign nation". Let the cat out of the bag, North American Indian tribes were stone age tribes for I have looked up metal working and they did not have any... There was some copper in the Great Lakes, there was some Iron in the Northwest and there was no Metal Alloy work at all: like bronze...

If you like stone age society, loose network of tribes has the same modern definition "sovereign nation". The definition:

The supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable power by which an independent state is governed and from which all specific political powers are derived; the intentional independence of a state, combined with the right and power of regulating its internal affairs without foreign interference.

Here the are nations in name only with they came out talk to foreign powers... Native Peoples have Tribal Sovereignty not Nation Sovereignty...

https://www.paumatribe.com/government/tribal-sovereignty/

The Marshall trilogy, a series of three Supreme Court cases decided by Chief Justice John Marshall beginning in the 1830’s, set forth the legal framework for defining Tribal sovereignty. In defining tribal sovereign powers, Justice Marshall described tribes as “domestic dependent nations,” meaning that although tribes were “distinct independent political communities,” they remained subject to the paternalistic powers of the United States. Thus, Indian tribes possess internal governmental power over all affairs within the tribe, but lack external authorities to engage in relationships with foreign nations. It is important to note that state governments do not possess authority over tribes and the powers to “expand” or “contract” tribal sovereign authority rests solely within the power of the federal government. Thus, sovereignty also means that states are precluded from interfering with the tribes in their self-governance, while at the same time the United States congress reserves plenary power to change the scope and definition of tribal sovereignty.

Native Peoples Tribes are more like modern unions than nations...

so it's okay to kill them when they are really helpless? for being stoneage tribes they gave your us(eless) army a hell of a fight

 

[5fish]

Most Indian bands smelted copper, silver, tin and lead. Steel required too high heat and more complex chemistry.

You are incorrect...

Metallurgy in pre-Columbian America - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[5fish]

Our government made actual formal treaties with the Native People, ergo they are a nation.

You obviously did not check the link...

 

[diane]

I know our government used the word "sovereign nation". Let the cat out of the bag, North American Indian tribes were stone age tribes for I have looked up metal working and they did not have any... There was some copper in the Great Lakes, there was some Iron in the Northwest and there was no Metal Alloy work at all: like bronze...

If you like stone age society, loose network of tribes has the same modern definition "sovereign nation". The definition:

The supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable power by which an independent state is governed and from which all specific political powers are derived; the intentional independence of a state, combined with the right and power of regulating its internal affairs without foreign interference.

Here the are nations in name only with they came out talk to foreign powers... Native Peoples have Tribal Sovereignty not Nation Sovereignty...

https://www.paumatribe.com/government/tribal-sovereignty/

The Marshall trilogy, a series of three Supreme Court cases decided by Chief Justice John Marshall beginning in the 1830’s, set forth the legal framework for defining Tribal sovereignty. In defining tribal sovereign powers, Justice Marshall described tribes as “domestic dependent nations,” meaning that although tribes were “distinct independent political communities,” they remained subject to the paternalistic powers of the United States. Thus, Indian tribes possess internal governmental power over all affairs within the tribe, but lack external authorities to engage in relationships with foreign nations. It is important to note that state governments do not possess authority over tribes and the powers to “expand” or “contract” tribal sovereign authority rests solely within the power of the federal government. Thus, sovereignty also means that states are precluded from interfering with the tribes in their self-governance, while at the same time the United States congress reserves plenary power to change the scope and definition of tribal sovereignty.

Native Peoples Tribes are more like modern unions than nations...

Now I might throw a stone at you and dent your metal armor - don't underestimate primitives! You got it backassward. The US government recognizes the tribes as having the same rights as federal and state powers to govern their own affairs. But, the US is arrogant. The Indian tribes/nations pre-date the United States and were negotiating with other countries long before the plantations in New England got upset with their king. Our sovereignty has been diminished badly through oppression, poverty, subjugation and so on, but not unrecognized. Since the dramatic failure of the Termination Act in 1955, every US president since Kennedy has been supportive of Indian sovereignty and self-governance. Until this president...

Strong misconceptions and outdated ideas have given most Americans the wrong idea about Indian success in the past 30-40 years. Unemployment with my tribe has gone from a whopping 85 percent to less than 10 percent. Tribal enterprises are not all casinos just as not all Indians are drunks - the casino thing is a new version of the drunk Indian, trust me - and many non-tribal people are hired. In this county tribe is the third largest employer. We have more college graduates than high school dropouts, teen pregnancy is down by two-thirds, and more.

In fact...tribes are getting too successful. There's some real problems with the government starting to reverse many of their pro-Native self-governance policies. This reaction is actually to be expected - it happened when the freed slaves began to get too successful and upset firmly held beliefs about their abilities to support themselves and thrive.

This recognized sovereignty and the right to self-governance and the management of our own affairs is constitutionally protected - and it's not going away.

 

[Jim Klag]

You obviously did not check the link...

Sovereignty and nationhood are political, not judicial issues. John Marshall can write all the opinions he wants and it changes nothing. No new laws arose out of Marshall's decisions. Our country has and still does recognize the sovereignty of Native People to govern their own affairs and as shown above, make treaties with the USA. Think of it as a country within a country. The proper analog is Vatican City, a totally independent and sovereign state inside Italy. Like our native population, the Vatican must conform its laws to those of their host country, but they are otherwise a complete self-governing state as are our Native tribes. Both the Vatican and the Indians have their own police, local governments and legislative bodies. That, my friend, makes them countries.

 

[rittmeister]

Sovereignty and nationhood are political, not judicial issues. John Marshall can write all the opinions he wants and it changes nothing. No new laws arose out of Marshall's decisions. Our country has and still does recognize the sovereignty of Native People to govern their own affairs and as shown above, make treaties with the USA. Think of it as a country within a country. The proper analog is Vatican City, a totally independent and sovereign state inside Italy. Like our native population, the Vatican must conform its laws to those of their host country, but they are otherwise a complete self-governing state as are our Native tribes. Both the Vatican and the Indians have their own police, local governments and legislative bodies. That, my friend, makes them countries.

... and both lost a lot of soil to their 'surrounding' neighbours

 

[diane]

... and both lost a lot of soil to their 'surrounding' neighbours

May I refer you to the Dawes Act and related legislation, as well as the Curtis Commission, which established tribal membership to be based on blood degree. Anybody else in this country have to get a card saying what degree blood of what you are? (That's also why they still have the quaint term: four by four...which I am.) The blood degree requirement was to reduce tribes. No tribe, no obligation!