Tail Gunners, Ball Gunners, Hatch Gunners... ACES?

5fish

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We all know about Fighter pilots being aces but Gunner can be aces too... This link talks about the history airplane gunners...


Snip... WWone...

In the Argonne offensive, American flyers downed 357 German warplanes. Of this total, fifty-five were shot down by the gunners on US observation planes and thirty-nine by those on US bombers. Barely a month after Sergeant Graveline made his first flight, the war was over.

snip...

The Americans picked up one trick from Maj. Raoul Lutbery, an American who had scored seventeen kills with the Lafayette Escadrille (but who also did not make the US ace list). When his formation was outnumbered, Lutbery would have his planes form a circle so the gunners could train their guns to the outside. Like circling the wagons in the Old West, this tactic directed maximum firepower against the attackers, something gunners would remember in the next war.


snip... WWtwo...

In spite of all the hardships, US gunners gave a remarkable account of themselves. In Eighth Air Force, bombers claimed 6,259 enemy aircraft destroyed, 1,836 probables, and 3,210 damaged. On all counts, the record topped that of the Eighth’s fighter pilots. Other heavy, medium, and light bomber units showed similar records.

snip...

As in World War I, however, most of the glory went to the fighter pilots. The thousands of planes downed by bombers usually were counted as team, rather than individual, successes. The Air Force maintains that it is too hard to assign credit to individual gunners on missions where dozens of guns may have been blazing away at the same target. Spreading the credit among the gunners in formations of 100 to 1,000 bombers would have been a bookkeeping nightmare. Unlike fighters, bombers did not carry gun cameras to record the action.


Form here it list the candidates as best Gunners... read the link to learn...
 

5fish

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Here is an article that list more Gunner Aces...


snip...

Staff Sergeant Arooth’s official record as a gunner — the greatest in Air Force history — included shooting down at least 17 enemy planes on only 14 missions, though it was estimated he actually downed more than 20 enemy aircraft. In 1958 Arooth was selected as a pallbearer at the ceremonies of the burial of the Unknown Soldier of World War II at Arlington National Cemetery.

snip...

M/SGT Michael Arooth shot down 17 enemy aircraft to reach triple “Ace” status. But he wasn’t a fighter pilot. In fact, he wasn’t a pilot at all . Arooth, a tail gunner on the B-17 “Tondelayo” who shot down a total of 17 enemy fighters in the course of 14 missions. Arooth was one of the few bomber gunners who received official recognition, being awarded the Distinguished Service Cross.

snip...

John Quinlan, the tail gunner on the celebrated B-17 “Memphis Belle”, who had an unofficial tally of 8 enemy fighters destroyed–five of those over Europe in the “Belle” and three more as a tail gunner in a B-29 over Japan. One of the few gunner aces who received official recognition was Benjamin Warner, a B-17 waist gunner. During a bombing mission on July 5, 1943, Warner shot down 7 German fighters, for which he was given the Distinguished Service Cross. He finished the war with 9 enemy planes destroyed.

snip...

Unlike the fighter pilots, individual bomber gunners did not receive official credit for any of their shootdowns. Part of this was for policy reasons–the Army wanted each gunner to think of himself as part of a larger crew and act as a team, rather than as an individual. A much bigger reason, however, was practical–in a typical B-17 “defensive box” formation, each enemy fighter plane may have had as many as a dozen gunners firing at it simultaneously, and even if it was confirmed that the plane was in fact destroyed (often difficult), it was simply impossible to determine whose shots had actually brought it down
 

5fish

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here is a video from a Tail Gunner view but picture it at night when the british Bombers flew...

 

5fish

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for god's sake the man's name's lufbery
He did not suvive the war. if he could have just survive another 6 months... from you link... He died a few weeks after the Red baron. The two greatest aces of the war just missed the end of it...

, he was killed in action as he attempted to bag a German Rumpler north of Nancy. Hit by enemy fire, his Nieuport 28 suddenly flipped over and Lufbery was seen to fall from the aircraft. The following day, in an impressive funeral that was witnessed by hundreds and recorded on film, Lufbery was buried in the cemetery at the Sebastopol Hospital. In the village of Maron, near the Moselle River, a bronze tablet marks the place where he fell. Lufbery's remains were later moved to Lafayette Memorial du Parc de Garches in Paris.
 

rittmeister

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He did not suvive the war. if he could have just survive another 6 months... from you link... He died a few weeks after the Red baron. The two greatest aces of the war just missed the end of it...
i don't think lufbery belongs to that rather small group
 

rittmeister

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Elaborate, your point...
you want to peruse that side i linked to - the us usually claims eddie rickenbacker as the best of the best anyway
 

5fish

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you want to peruse that side i linked to - the us usually claims eddie rickenbacker as the best of the best anyway
I do not argue that but I did realize how close René Paul Fonck, a Frenchman got to catching him in the number of kills.

I think this is why we have never heard of the Frenchman:

As his fame grew, so did his ego and Fonck never achieved the admiration and popularity of Georges Guynemer. Even French ace Claude Haegelen, one of Fonck's few friends, felt he boasted too much and too often; but no one could deny that Fonck was an excellent pilot and superb marksman. In 1944 he was arrested and charged with being a collaborator.

My argument is that Lufbery was the best of the best observation gunner of WW One. The two best in their fields did not survive the war.
 

rittmeister

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I do not argue that but I did realize how close René Paul Fonck, a Frenchman got to catching him in the number of kills.

I think this is why we have never heard of the Frenchman:

As his fame grew, so did his ego and Fonck never achieved the admiration and popularity of Georges Guynemer. Even French ace Claude Haegelen, one of Fonck's few friends, felt he boasted too much and too often; but no one could deny that Fonck was an excellent pilot and superb marksman. In 1944 he was arrested and charged with being a collaborator.

My argument is that Lufbery was the best of the best observation gunner of WW One. The two best in their fields did not survive the war.
the best ballon buster did
 

5fish

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the best ballon buster did
He survive the but had a reminder of it, daily...

. On the morning of 14 October 1918, his days as a fighting pilot came to an end near Thourout in northwestern Belgium. Just as he began the attack that would culminate in his 37th victory, Coppens was hit in the left leg by an incendiary bullet. Despite a severed artery and intense pain, he shot down his target and managed to crash land within the safety of his own lines. His badly shattered leg had to be amputated.
 

5fish

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Ball turret gunners tough life... watch out for belly landing...


The Sperry ball turret was very small[clarification needed] in order to reduce drag, and was typically operated by the smallest man of the crew. To enter the turret, the turret was moved until the guns were pointed straight down. The gunner placed his feet in the heel rests and occupied his cramped station. He would put on a safety strap and close and lock the turret door. There was no room inside for a parachute, which was left in the cabin above the turret. A few gunners wore a chest parachute.

The gunner was forced to assume a fetal position within the turret with his back and head against the rear wall, his hips at the bottom, and his legs held in mid-air by two footrests on the front wall. This left him positioned with his eyes roughly level with the pair of light-barrel Browning AN/M2 .50 caliber machine guns which extended through the entire turret, located to either side of the gunner. The cocking handles were located too close to the gunner to be operated easily, so a cable was attached to the handle through pulleys to a handle near the front of the turret. Another factor was that not all stoppages could be corrected by charging (cocking) the guns. In many cases, when a stoppage occurred, it was necessary for the gunner to "reload" the gun, which required access to the firing chamber of the guns. Access was severely restricted by the guns' location in the small turret. Normally, the gunner accessed the firing chamber by releasing a latch and raising the cover to a position perpendicular to the gun but this was not possible in the ball turret. To remedy that, the front end of the cover was "slotted". The gunner released the latch and removed the cover which allowed space to clear the action. Small ammunition boxes rested on the top of the turret and additional ammunition belts fed the turret by means of a chute system. A reflector sight was hung from the top of the turret, positioned roughly between the gunner's feet.


Here is a thought...

Ball turret gunners flying over enemy targets had one of the war’s most dangerous jobs. In addition to the standard fears of being shot down, these gunners had to deal with the fact that they were dangling beneath the aircraft without any armor and were a favored target of enemy fighters.

Worse, their parachute didn’t fit in the ball and so they would have to climb into the plane and don the chute if the crew was forced to bail out. They were also more exposed to the elements than other aircrew members. Turret gunners oxygen lines could freeze from the extremely low temperatures.


Here is this a short Ball Turret Gunner story of what it was like... good tale to read...


snip...

"The good news was you had the best view of any other crew member; the bad news was that if the plane took a hit and there was damage to the mechanism that raised and lowered the ball turret, you were on your own," Lewi said.
"There were many instances, and they are pretty horrific, where the ball turret was stuck and the bombers have had to make crash landings. Everybody else in the plane understood that the [ball turret gunner] was a dead man. He'd be crushed."
For those manning that station death was indeed a particularly gruesome affair, as detailed by poet Randall Jarrell in his famous verse "Death of a Ball Turret Gunner."
"I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze. Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream life," the poem reads. "I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters. When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose."
Drafted on Nov. 19, 1943, Buczak was just 18 the first time he crawled into a ball turret. His diminutive 5-foot-5-inch frame made him a lock for the job.
"I was the smallest, so I was elected," he said. "It was like suicide going in there."
 

rittmeister

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Did you notice he did all of his kills in 1918? What about the first years of the war!
there's some text about that - did you by chance peruse only the list?
 

5fish

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there's some text about that - did you by chance peruse only the list?
You know here is a link about shooting down balloons. It was hard until incendiary arms and even then it was still hard. Its interesting , the balloons were hanging nets to catch planes. It a good read... Five balloons shot down makes you an ace...

.
 

rittmeister

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You know here is a link about shooting down balloons. It was hard until incendiary arms and even then it was still hard. Its interesting , the balloons were hanging nets to catch planes. It a good read... Five balloons shot down makes you an ace...
when i first heard about ballon busting i thought what's the fuzz, it's a stationary target?

... oh boy
 

5fish

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... oh boy
From the article the top two... Did the germans keep count of the Balloons they shot down...

Will Coppens, a Belgian pilot, personally awarded a medal by King Albert I had only shot down two enemy planes in his career, but he had taken down an astounding 35 enemy balloons. The next highest scoring pilot after him was Frenchman Leon Bourjade with 27. So, yeah, Coppens earned that medal from his king.
 

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Here is even a little more detail article about WW one ballooning...


Snip... the people on the ground suffered more if they were under those balloons...

The airplane fraternity may have been inclined to patronize balloon troops. Their attitude, however, seemed like boundless admiration compared to our complete rejection by combat ground troops who perforce were our neighbors up front. During air attacks on balloons, wild enemy bullets and fragmentation from AA artillery fell on the hapless ground sloggers. The enemy intermittently shelled our ground position. On occasion he would seek to pick off a balloon in the air with time-fuzed high explosives. We could make the balloon a difficult target for ground-to-air shelling by changing altitude or by moving the motorized winch. There was no way to prevent the fragmentation from falling among the infantrymen. Balloon companies were unpopular along the line as a result. When seeking a new base of operations we met hostility from every side. Like innocent bystanders from the beginning of time, our neighbors often seemed to suffer higher casualties than we did when the enemy attacked us.
 

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Here more...


snip...

The secret was to sneak up on them some how. As the balloons were filled with hydrogen they burned easily once they were pierced with tracer bullets or bullets especially designed for Zeppelins. The first balloon-busters fired Le Prieur rockets. The French introduced these during the Verdun fighting of 1916. Incendiary bullets replaced rockets beginning in 1917.

The balloon observers were the only people routinely outfitted with parachutes, which had been available since 1915. The parachutes had a failure rate just high enough to ensure that observers jumped only in dire emergencies. By the war's end 241 German observation balloons had been shot down.


A German 75-mm Anti Aircraft Battery stands guard near an observation balloon. The German gun crew were known to mix in incendiary rounds called "flaming onions," this was ammunition specifically designed for balloon-busters. These threw up great balls of fire, distracting all but the most determined pilots.

Here is those Le Prieur rockets... the first air to air missile...


snip...

The Le Prieur rocket was essentially a cardboard tube filled with 200 grams of black powder with a wooden conical head attached (by doped paper or linen tape) and had a triangular knife blade inserted in a slot across its apex forming a spear point. A square-section wooden stick (usually pine) was taped to the fish with about 3.0 metres (9.8 feet) extending back from the base of the rocket and fitted snugly into a launch tube attached to the aircraft inter-plane struts.

Here an article with modern photos...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...protect-Britain-German-Zeppelin-airships.html
 
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