Secession/Independence is a right

Do you believe in secession ?


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byron ed

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...he was seeing Jackson in the lead and is a soldier and saw man were armed and was seeing this with his own eyes not with spies ...
Yet he was not in the Confederate camp and had to observe from a distance, meaning he had no idea the actual status of those blacks he saw. He was not privvy to the muster roll in the camp, not having any spies in the camp to verify anything he saw.

This could even be a "straw man" situation then -- fool the enemy with log "cannons," lighting more campfires at night, or ordering all the servants in camp to borrow gear and parade out in plain view of the enemy -- what else besides such a ruse would explain why "5000" of any sort of troops would make themselves so conspicuous in front of the enemy? 5000 at one time? Suspicious, but such ruses were occasionally used and some were successful.

Not saying that happened, but as a careful student of the Civil War how about being a bit suspect of any single observer's comments -- many of them made post-war -- without corroborating accounts from any one of the dozens or more Union officers/observers also present at that event, or having paper evidence of some sort, like a payroll of the Confederate unit in question showing 5000 or more black soldiers on the payroll (if they weren't being paid as soldiers they weren't "Black Confederates" but servants, yes?. Again, oops).

And as a careful student of the Civil War, how about setting aside what one wants the situation to have been to prove a point "that the war wasn't over slavery because blacks themselves were fighting against Yankee invasion." It fools no one that's the purpose behind "Black Confederates," hence the yuks over it.
 
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General Lee

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Yet he was not in the Confederate camp and had to observe from a distance, meaning he had no idea the actual status of those blacks he saw. He was not privvy to the muster roll in the camp, not having any spies in the camp to verify anything he saw.

This could even be a "straw man" situation then -- fool the enemy with log "cannons," lighting more campfires at night, or ordering all the servants in camp to borrow gear and parade out in plain view of the enemy -- what else besides such a ruse would explain why "5000" of any sort of troops would make themselves so conspicuous in front of the enemy? 5000 at one time? Suspicious, but such ruses were occasionally used and some were successful.

Not saying that happened, but as a careful student of the Civil War how about being a bit suspect of any single observer's comments -- many of them made post-war -- without corroborating accounts from any one of the dozens or more Union officers/observers also present at that event, or having paper evidence of some sort, like a payroll of the Confederate unit in question showing 5000 or more black soldiers on the payroll (if they weren't being paid as soldiers they weren't "Black Confederates" but servants, yes?. Again, oops).

And as a careful student of the Civil War, how about setting aside what one wants the situation to have been to prove a point "that the war wasn't over slavery because blacks themselves were fighting against Yankee invasion." It fools no one that's the purpose behind "Black Confederates," hence the yuks over it.
Also I beleive he was a prisoner but could be wrong. There are plenty of other accounts as well.
 

diane

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There is one black Confederate, brigadier general at that, and that's this guy:

1597424421209.png

Not that Gen Randall Lee Gibson claimed it!
 

O' Be Joyful

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byron ed

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...There are plenty of other accounts as well.
That wouldn't be surprising. As everybody knows there were hundreds of blacks in the Confederate camps, some of them armed (with the permission of their masters or the commander in place). No big deal, as anyone near the front was inclined to arm themselves -- wagon masters, mule skinners, even nurses on occasion.

You dearly want to portray such types as "Black Confederates," as if they were fighting for the Confederate cause at the time. But no, these fought to protect their homes from the invading Yankees until such a time that the invading Yankees took over their neighborhoods and plantations. Clearly, that's to miss the black perspective at the time; that you go with the white man you need to go with in order to survive the war. Most blacks were not stupid, if most were uneducated.

That's not nearly an indication of black loyalty to the Confederate cause; in modern-speak "Black Confederates."

btw what can we suppose the plan was, had the Confederacy won the war? That these "Black Confederates" would willingly return themselves to slavery or low status as free blacks? That the South would willingly accept hundreds more free blacks into its society after the war? Was it freedom or the Confederacy that motivated "Black Confederates."?

Let's be honest. The real goal of the fad is to promote that the war wasn't over slavery. And with the tariffs thing never gaining much traction its understandable that something else would have to be created to push that goal, no matter how tenuous. If only that elusive black Confederate muster roll could be found in some Richmond basement!
 
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General Lee

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20200810_105725.jpgIt does say privates for some so here it is and I don't recall muster roles mentioning race so that makes things a bit harder except when others have already found them and compiled the names like this.
 

byron ed

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[image of soldier list]...It does say privates for some so here it is and I don't recall muster roles mentioning race so that makes things a bit harder except when others have already found them and compiled the names like this.
This is not remotely a period document, which we know because the term "Black Confederates" was never used at the time. If you don't have a period muster roll or pay roll indicating legions of black Confederate soldiers you don't have it. This is not the place to be winging-it.

Even at that, I see that only three on this list even have an Army rank. No one has ever disputed that there were many black body servants, musicians or cooks. This would include such as "Black Confederates"? The bar continues to lower.

Respectfully; embrace the doubt, abandon the fad and let's get back to talking about the Civil War as it was, inventing nothing.
 
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jgoodguy

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View attachment 2811It does say privates for some so here it is and I don't recall muster roles mentioning race so that makes things a bit harder except when others have already found them and compiled the names like this.
I count 4 possibles, the privates. However, cooks were carried on a roster as private for accounting and victualing reasons. I think I have the CSRs for these guys. The names look familiar.
 

diane

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and while we are at it

Now...thereby hangs a tale! Some of those photos have been reworked to make Varina look more non-white, but they really didn't need to do that. The first time I saw her photo (unretouched) I wondered if she was Indian. Her dad was from NJ - could been Delaware!
 

General Lee

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This is not remotely a period document, which we know because the term "Black Confederates" was never used at the time. If you don't have a period muster roll or pay roll indicating legions of black Confederate soldiers you don't have it. This is not the place to be winging-it.

Even at that, I see that only three on this list even have an Army rank. No one has ever disputed that there were many black body servants, musicians or cooks. This would include such as "Black Confederates"? The bar continues to lower.

Respectfully; embrace the doubt, abandon the fad and let's get back to talking about the Civil War as it was, inventing nothing.
Muster roles didn't indicate race as I've mentioned. They weren't all in a large mass most were integrated in the army and spread out. I'm sure you know that and you can continue to say oh well there not really soldiers and continue to question quotes from witnesses but from the one you have seen you question it but can't dismiss it as fad as you put it. Now I'll be quite busy today and this weekend but next week starting Monday I will show you more quotes and evidence then.
 

Jim Klag

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Muster roles didn't indicate race as I've mentioned
For the very simple reason that all the men on the muster rolls who were soldiers were white. No need to indicate race.
 
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