Rape in the Civil War

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byron ed

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Rape is not a crime of lust it is a crime of violence...
Fortunately we know what words mean here. While rape and violence are crimes, lust is not a crime.

In calm consideration then, rape in the Antebellum and CW era was as often motived by lust and opportunity alone, a risk-free opportunity to act on that lust provided by the condition of war in a chattel slavery section of the Country.

Some here are compelled to make this an all-or-nothing, take-no-prisoners slam-dunk on what rape always was in the Antebellum and Civil War era. I would say, as I have, that calm down, there were incidents of rape at that time where (what we today call) sexism and racism were a primary motivation -- something never denied by anyone here.
 

byron ed

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Oops! Cute. Cherry picking again. The first thing you said in #69 was: And was there any history for use of the term "sexism" in the period we refer to? Well, no. oops.
Also true, and it was appropriately an "oops" because the thread was going down the trail that all rapes in the Antebellum and CW era were sexist and racist in nature. Yet some rapes at that time (as now) were more motivated by lust and opportunity. And I'm gonna use this opportunity to point out yet another prominent motivation for rapes at that time; sheer business and profit -- breeding of livestock.

I'm sorry that if for some history has to be all one thing or all another, but it's ok, especially given the substance of the OP article in this thread, to push back on grand slam-dunk pronouncements and promote using caution when using modern colloquial to reference historic circumstance.
 

byron ed

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...there were incidents of rape at that time where (what we today call) sexism and racism were a primary motivation -- something never denied by anyone here.
like Hell--rhetoric and eat my shorts.
Sigh, you know the drill. Just go ahead then and quote where somebody here denied the above.

(btw what you consider food is your own affair; too much information ;))
 

byron ed

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You feed it consistently, and have memorized your own menu.
????

Poetry then, ok. But what you think about business being yet another motive for rape in the Antebellum/CW south? -- the breeding of livestock as a plantation management issue.
 
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Leftyhunter

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Race wasn't a factor in having American troops the vast majority of who were white rape European women in WWII. Give young men guns vs unarmed woman and bad things can happen. Yes no doubt some or many Union troops were racist although not all racists are rapists.
Armies aren't always composed of Saints. It takes very vigilant officers and NCOs to make sure rape isn't commited by the enlisted men or for that matter their fellow officers and NCOs. Unfortunately in war that is not always the case.
Leftyhunter
 

Leftyhunter

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????

Poetry then, ok. But what you think about business being yet another motive for rape in the Antebellum/CW south? -- the breeding of livestock as a plantation management issue.
No doubt some slave owners impregnated their slaves because especially if the slave has a light skinned daughter the owner can sell the daughter for a very good price not that he can't make a profit of a light skinned son.
Leftyhunter
 

diane

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No doubt some slave owners impregnated their slaves because especially if the slave has a light skinned daughter the owner can sell the daughter for a very good price not that he can't make a profit of a light skinned son.
Leftyhunter
Now you're getting into a topic that belongs under the slavery section. That was a very lucrative aspect of the slave trade - it's very seldom mentioned, too, as it's so unsavory but it should be better known - it didn't happen sometimes, it was part of the market trade.
 

MattL

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More than that, the term "sexist" wasn't used at all at that time. But you get it: what we today call sexism and racism were in play back then -- not that anybody here has ever disagreed with that.
They didn't have online forums back then either, so I assume to be consistent you refuse to talk about the subject of the time on online forums as well? Terms are a tool, you are fully willing to use other post modern tools but for some reason draw your line on the word sexism/sexist. It's incredibly odd.
 

MattL

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Fortunately we know what words mean here. While rape and violence are crimes, lust is not a crime.

In calm consideration then, rape in the Antebellum and CW era was as often motived by lust and opportunity alone, a risk-free opportunity to act on that lust provided by the condition of war in a chattel slavery section of the Country.
You say with confidence it seems that it was motivated by "lust and opportunity alone"... prove it. You challenge me adding sexism to that list of two, to make it three, and you proclaim it was without sexism. Please enlighten me where you get the insight to so confidently say it was just those two things alone.

Some here are compelled to make this an all-or-nothing, take-no-prisoners slam-dunk on what rape always was in the Antebellum and Civil War era. I would say, as I have, that calm down, there were incidents of rape at that time where (what we today call) sexism and racism were a primary motivation -- something never denied by anyone here.
You wanted to talk about race at the time, you wanted to talk about two potential motivations (I say potential since you use strong words, "alone" where I don't feel comfortable being so absolute), you started the topic. Some of us suggest sexism was on that list of motivations. For people stuck in time, the idea that women were inferior to men and thus allowing them to impose their physical desires on them without permission. Then some of us also suggest that's even more decisive than lust and opportunity. Not every white man alone with a black woman and who was horny raped that woman. Hence the idea of superiority (or as we all commonly use modern terms posting on an online forum the most modern of things lol) or sexism was the decider on whether they actually did rape or not.

Instead of talking about that point you argue about some nonsense of not using a term since it didn't exist back then rather than speak on the subject. These are genuine responses to the topic you started.

Note that to anyone else this wouldn't even be a conversation, I don't think I've ever heard anyone so vehemently argue sexism as a key in rape in historical time periods.
 

byron ed

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...Terms are a tool, you are fully willing to use other post modern tools but for some reason draw your line on the word sexism/sexist...
Or, there's what I actually said
...what we today call sexism and racism were in play back then...
Why would you draw the line in acknowledging that some, perhaps many rapes in the Antebellum/CW south were instead simply motivated by lust and opportunity ...or as lately noted simple profit (breeding of livestock). It's ok to point out that it's only speculation to assign all rapes in that period under some post-century umbrella term like "sexist." We -- none of us --exactly knows what was in the dark hearts of rapists at that time. We today can as reliably speculate that lust, opportunity and profit were primary motives for rape in many cases.

Consider the mental and emotional aptitude of so many criminals ...it's likely they were not acting out some high-fallutin' post-century concept of masculine or racial superiority -- rather they were just "gonna grab some ass." Or in the case of a plantation owner just "enhance the stock asset."

None of that denies that what we today call sexism or racism were in play back then. All I've ever promoted is that we should be cautious in applying post-century, post-modern social science colloquial to Antebellum/CW settings. Will you once again pump that up into something so greviously and outrageously "wrong" it must be "destroyed"? or can we just get back to considering all input, the actual point of a forum.
 
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byron ed

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,,,You say with confidence it seems that it was motivated by "lust and opportunity alone"...
Or, did I actually preface that with an "as often"?

...you wanted to talk about two potential motivations (I say potential since you use strong words, "alone"
Or again, did I actually state "as often rape was motivated by lust and opportunity alone." So not quite the Big Lebowski you pump it up to be.

...I don't feel comfortable being so absolute), you started the topic.
Yes that is how I framed my post. Thanks for bringing it up.

. Some of us suggest sexism was on that list of motivations...
An idea never opposed by me. But let's be honest, the concept of "sexism" was introduced here in the context of applying to all rapes (not just one "on that list") in the Antebellum/CW. It was promoted that all rapes in all wars, and for that matter in all of human history embued sexism. That was an overplay so it was reasonable on my part to push-back on it. In any event it's not like folks here can't go back and read the posts.

...the idea that women were inferior to men and thus allowing them to impose their physical desires on them without permission. Then some of us also suggest that's even more decisive than lust and opportunity. Not every white man alone with a black woman and who was horny raped that woman. Hence the idea of superiority (or as we all commonly use modern terms posting on an online forum the most modern of things lol) or sexism was the decider on whether they actually did rape or not.
Not anything I'd deny -- to notice the use now of sexism as "more decisive" where previously the thread was definitely going the way of sexism was "always decisive."

...you argue about some nonsense of not using a term since it didn't exist back then...
Or did I actually only ever recommend using caution in applying post-century social-science colloquial to Antebellum/CW analysis? Yeah, that's what actually went down.

Why pump-up (lie about) what somebody here has said just so you can rail against it? I understand that's the common mode on the "other site," but look where they're headed since the Confederate apologists became majority staff over there.

...I don't think I've ever heard anyone so vehemently argue sexism as a key in rape in historical time periods.
Me neither, which is why I pushed back, suggesting caution with that. I contributed three viable alternates as primary motivations to rape, which some posters found reasonable and made comments to that effect. Bottom line; no hits no fouls.
 
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Jim Klag

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Me neither, which is why I suggested caution with that. I contributed three viable alternates as primary motivations to rape, which some posters found reasonable and made comments to that effect. Bottom line; no hits no fouls.
Uh, no. You suggested caution "in the use of the term sexism." You play very fast and loose with quotes - even your own. It's a bad habit.
 
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diane

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Well, the one term everybody can agree on and which has no time frame but the eternal one is the original subject - rape.
 

byron ed

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Uh, no. You suggested caution "in the use of the term sexism." You play very fast and loose with quotes - even your own. It's a bad habit.
I've expressed the same thought, the same advice, several different ways here. No dualism there whatsoever. Totally honest and consistent -- to realize folks can actually go back and read all the posts, right?

So much for the intended "slam dunk" and huge thread "score."

And while we're on the expression "play fast and loose" -- how about making the sources available for the items listed in the "this day in the Civil War" feature?
 

rittmeister

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I've expressed the same thought, the same advice, several different ways here. No dualism there whatsoever. Totally honest and consistent -- to realize folks can actually go back and read all the posts, right?

So much for the intended "slam dunk" and huge thread "score."

And while we're on the expression "play fast and loose" -- how about making the sources available for the items listed in the "this day in the Civil War" feature?
you need a source for the day when caesar crossed the rubicon?
 

Jim Klag

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And while we're on the expression "play fast and loose" -- how about making the sources available for the items listed in the "this day in the Civil War" feature
Again? You should go back in your archives where you've asked that question before. Dates of events and birthdays are public domain common knowledge. A gentleman named Martin Cross has a bunch of Civil War events formatted on a list with bullets . . .etc. I search the web's various sites that give short blurbs for historical events and birth/death dates that happened on a given date and I select the ones that might be Civil War related and add them to the list. What you see today are 4th and 5th generation lists. There are no new entries anymore. They are all recycled. I have been doing them for years on Facebook and CWT. I go to Google and other search engines and type "January 18 historical events" and get a zillion sites that do pretty much exactly the same lists. Some are more historical; some are more pop culture; some are sports related. There's really no mystery. If you do the search, you will see every single source I use(d).
 
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