Paul Craig Roberts and the Civil War

[5fish]

,....can defeat a great lyin':

You still have not explained what you want to do with this revelation you are preaching to us.

 

[TomEvans]

You still have not explained what you want to do with this revelation you are preaching to us.

I've explained that in other posts.

 

[LJMYERS]

All you need to know about the Civil War from the family of Major Alfred Mordecai.

 

[TheUnpopularTruth]

A Union government has the right to protect and defend its property and goods... The Confederate occupiers were nothing but thieves taking property and goods owned by the People of the United States...

You sound like the king of England describing the American Revolution.

 

[TheUnpopularTruth]

He supported the amendment so what is your argument over the Corwin amendment and Lincoln... a story for you... link...

Abraham Lincoln and the Corwin Amendment

.

In December 1860, President James Buchanan requested Congress to propose an "explanatory amendment" with regard to slavery. In the house, Ohio Representative Thomas Corwin was selected as the chairman of the committee; and in the senate, William H. Seward took the lead in sponsoring the amendment. In his correspondence during the month of December, president-elect Lincoln was adamant that there be no compromises with regard to the extension of slavery. In a meeting with Thurlow Weed, Seward's Republican ally in New York, Lincoln offered three compromise proposals, and Weed passed this information to Seward. Upon his return to the Senate, Seward introduced three resolutions to the Senate committee. One resolution�not included in Lincoln's proposals�offered that "no amendment shall be made to the Constitution, which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish, or interfere within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State." In other words, the amendment would forever guarantee the right of the Southern people to own slaves. With much debate, the amendment passed both houses of Congress on March 2, 1861, two days before Lincoln took office.

Hence, slavery was safer IN the Union than out of it. Thank you for making my point. The South did not secede over slavery.

 

[TheUnpopularTruth]

The Confederacy was not a nation but these insurgents leading a rebellion and occupying Southern sections of the Union. The land-occupied were within the United States national borders, so Lincoln had the authority to impose emancipation for the slaves in the occupied Southern lands...

And yet... The slaves all stayed where they were. Hey, what about those five Union slave states, what what were they fighting against the Confederacy about? And further, if indeed the Confederacy was not a nation, than wouldn't Lincoln's allowing Sherman and Sheridan making war against civilian women and children, and stealing/destroying property be an act of treason?

When Union soldiers appeared in a Southern town, the town could expect to be totally looted and burnt to the ground. Cisco provides example after example.

When Lincoln’s army appeared on a plantation, the black slave women were mercilessly raped for the failure of slaves to revolt against their masters, thereby supporting the South’s war effort.

From Walter Brian Cisco’s book, War Crimes Against Southern Civilians

Nice cult you have here.

 

[LJMYERS]

The movie Gods and Generals tells it all.

 

[TomEvans]

You sound like the king of England describing the American Revolution.

Except the King was legally RIGHT, since the colonies were the sovereign territory of the state of Great Britain in 1776.

So the states declared a Revolution as 13 sovereign nations... and they fought it as 13 sovereign nations, and therefore WON it as 13 sovereign nations.



Meanwhile the US government DENIES that the Treaty established 13 free, sovereign and independent states!

In contrast, Lincoln used the phrase 'the people' like Stalin or Mao, i.e. to mean OLIGARCHY.

 

[TomEvans]

Hence, slavery was safer IN the Union than out of it. Thank you for making my point. The South did not secede over slavery.

That is a secondary issue.

The states WERE 11 SOVEREIGN NATIONS..... REGARDLESS of WHY they seceded.

Before 1981, slavery was globally LEGAL for all sovereign nations.... so legally, it DOES NOT MATTER.

 

[TomEvans]

And yet... The slaves all stayed where they were. Hey, what about those five Union slave states, what what were they fighting against the Confederacy about?

THIS.



And THIS.



So they were supposedly ONLY fighting to preserve the so called national union (which in truth NEVER EXISTED...

... but no matter, Lincoln took away free speech, so the truth would become the first casualty of war.





The Supreme Court did NOT think it constitutional, however...




But again, no matter, since the damage had been DONE by 1866.... because Lincoln and Congress had LOCKED DOWN THE FEDERAL COURTS UNDER U.S. MILITARY FORCES, until then.



But under the globally accepted hierarchy of international law, an Usurpation cannot lawfully assume de jure national sovereignty over de jure sovereign nations, simply by suppressing discovery.

Rather by law, the US government simply claimed DE FACTO authority, and any state electorate can reclaim de facto sovereignty under the 1783 Treaty of paris, which proves that the states remain fully de juresovereign nations.

And further, if indeed the Confederacy was not a nation, than wouldn't Lincoln's allowing Sherman and Sheridan making war against civilian women and children, and stealing/destroying property be an act of treason?

The US government simply calls it collateral damage and civil forfeiture that was forced on the national authority by southern rebellion (Lincolns words.

This is why the state electorates must assert their de jure national sovereignty, in order to reclaim de facto national authority.

Nice cult you have here.

But truth is the karma that runs over their dogma.

 

[5fish]

@TheUnpopularTruth, glad to see your return... @Tom and @TomEvans need support...

Sometimes an elephant in the room....

The historical facts you repeatedly ignore... Your willingness to ignore the truths of history...

 

[5fish]

Before 1981, slavery was globally LEGAL for all sovereign nations....

The United States outlawed slavery back in the 1860s...

Globally, slavery was declared illegal under international law in 1948 by the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Despite its legal prohibition in all countries today, modern forms of slavery, human trafficking, and forced labor still persist globally, affecting millions of people.

The premise that slavery was globally legal for all sovereign nations before 1981 is incorrect; the practice of legal chattel slavery was largely abolished worldwide by the 1970s, with the last nation to officially abolish it being Mauritania in 1981.
While many countries had abolished slavery much earlier, a few nations in the Arabian Peninsula still permitted it legally until the latter half of the 20th century, typically due to external political and economic pressure:

• Saudi Arabia and Yemen abolished slavery in 1962.
• Dubai (part of the Trucial States) abolished it in 1963.
• Oman was the last of the Arabian Peninsula nations to end legal slavery, doing so in 1970.

Brazil was the last nation in the Americas to abolish slavery, doing so on May 13, 1888, with the signing of the Lei Áurea (Golden Law) by Princess Isabel, ending over 300 years of forced labor and freeing over 700,000 enslaved people. This made it the final country in the Western Hemisphere to formally end the practice, which had been deeply entrenched in its economy, particularly for coffee and sugar production, despite growing international and domestic pressure.

 

[5fish]

The Supreme Court did NOT think it constitutional, however...

The Supreme Court did not issue a decision until after the war ended... Lincoln did have political prisoners...

While an exact number is unknown, President Lincoln jailed thousands of suspected Confederate sympathizers and anti-war protestors (Copperheads) during the Civil War, potentially ranging from 13,000 to 38,000 individuals, by suspending the writ of habeas corpus to allow military arrests without trial, impacting prominent figures like Maryland's mayor and legislators, as well as newspaper editors and citizens, especially in border states.

 

[TomEvans]

The Supreme Court did not issue a decision until after the war ended... Lincoln did have political prisoners...

INCLUDING the Supreme Court, which is WHY they couldnt decide it sooner ... AS I MENTIONED.

And Lincoln imprisoned people to take away free speech.

 

[TomEvans]

The United States outlawed slavery back in the 1860s...

The United States was NEVER a sovereign nation.



That is essentially THIRTEEN treaties between FOURTEEN sovereign nations.....

1 the sovereign nation of Great Britain, and

2. the 13 American states, AS 13 fully sovereign nations.

Globally, slavery was declared illegal under international law in 1948 by the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

But it had no enforceability INSIDE any sovereign nation, until 1981, when Mauritania became the last sovereign nation to formally abolish it.

Despite its legal prohibition in all countries today, modern forms of slavery, human trafficking, and forced labor still persist globally, affecting millions of people.

But now the laws CAN beenforced REGARDLESS of a nations national sovereignty... since that Mauritania precedent NOW makes it an international crime against humanity, under UN laws.

NOT SO before 1981!

The premise that slavery was globally legal for all sovereign nations before 1981 is incorrect; the practice of legal chattel slavery was largely abolished worldwide by the 1970s, with the last nation to officially abolish it being Mauritania in 1981.

That was by DOMESTIC policy, not international... so national sovereignty DID enable any sovereign nation to practice chattel slavery (as opposed to punitive slavery, which is expressly permitted under the 13th amendment.

 

[TomEvans]

@TheUnpopularTruth, glad to see your return... @Tom and @TomEvans need support...



The historical facts you repeatedly ignore... Your willingness to ignore the truths of history...

You and I are going to address this accusation...



THAT is 13 international treaties in one... between Great Britain, and the 13 free, sovereign and independent states.

I have already told you what this means... but clearly you havent researched it for yourself. Do that now.

 

[5fish]

But does it....

If a U.S. state were to leave the Union, the act would be called secession, and the departing state would effectively become a sovereign nation

 

[TheUnpopularTruth]

@TheUnpopularTruth, glad to see your return... @Tom and @TomEvans need support...



The historical facts you repeatedly ignore... Your willingness to ignore the truths of history...

Says the pot calling the kettle black. What "truths of history" am I "repeatedly ignoring"? (I think you misspelled debunking). Do I need to post the transcripts of Lincoln's first inaugural address, the Corwin Amendment, and the Emancipation Proclamation for you? Regarding your other statement about slavery being illegal, evidently the inventors of African slavery didn't get the memo. America was once a customer, Africa was and is Costco. Slavery never ended. It was just swept under the rug.

https://qz.com/africa/1333946/globa...hest-rate-of-modern-day-slavery-in-the-world/

European Union Facilitates Slave Trade in North Africa - LewRockwell

Knowing Europe’s horrendous colonial history and today’s European Union’s (EU) ever-growing tyranny, there is little surprise in the EU’s facilitating slave trade in Northern Africa, mostly through Europe-NATO’s destruction of today’s chaotic Libya. The latter with the support of the then Obama...

www.lewrockwell.com

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/01/1152893248/red-cobalt-congo-drc-mining-siddharth-kara

 

[TomEvans]

But does it....

If a U.S. state were to leave the Union, the act would be called secession, and the departing state would effectively become a sovereign nation

No, that's what they BECAME via the American Revolution: 13 fully sovereign nations.

 

[5fish]

No, that's what they BECAME via the American Revolution: 13 fully sovereign nations.

You're getting close to angels... Prove any state is a sovereign nation on its own... Somaliland is not a sovereign nation, take the clue...