Other Segregated militaries and challenges of integration

rittmeister

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They could have run to the Prussians but they loss Berlin to Napoleon... They could have just given in and join the Confederation of the Rhine... It seems the Brits the only German hope against Napoleon... I assume this is not taught in German schools... lol... or
you want to read up on the napoleonic wars - prussia folded rather early. if someone wanted to fight the french there was no german state he could join maybe you could count austria as a german state but they were arch-catholic - a lot of the prussian top soldiers got a honourable discharge and went on to fight for the russians (carl von clausewitz just to name one of them)
 

Leftyhunter

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When a military needs bodies aka cannon fodder and it can't get its own people to fight then it does what it has to do. I had a friend who commanded an infantry company in Vietnam. His company had Germans, Poles( yes I know this is the middle of the Cold War) and Belgians. The Belgians were the best has they had previous experience fighting in the Congo just a few years earlier. President Johnson even offered Prime Minister Wilson of the UK that the US would pay the UKs foreiegn debts in exchange for soldiers. The best the US could get out of the UK was 4k soldiers who mostly enlisted in the Australian Army. When a nation needs soldiers it will leave no stone unturned.
Leftyhunter
 

5fish

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@Leftyhunter , I found you whole armies owned by the East India Company... They fought in a lot of wars...


snip...


The presidency armies were the armies of the three presidencies of the East India Company's rule in India, later the forces of the British Crown in India, composed primarily of Indian sepoys. The presidency armies were named after the presidencies: the Bengal Army, the Madras Army and the Bombay Army. Initially, only Europeans served as commissioned or non-commissioned officers. In time, Indian Army units were garrisoned from Peshawar in the north, to Sind in the west, and to Rangoon in the east. The army was engaged in the wars to extend British control in India (the Mysore, Maratha and Sikh wars) and beyond (the Burma, Afghan, First and Second Opium Wars, and the Expedition to Abyssinia). The presidency armies, like the presidencies themselves, belonged to the Company until the Indian Rebellion of 1857, when the Crown took over the Company and its three armies. In 1895 the three presidency armies were merged into a united Indian Army.

here is the Indian unit...


snip...

Sepoy (/ˈsiːpɔɪ/) was originally the designation given to a professional Indian infantryman, usually armed with a musket, in the armies of the Mughal Empire. In the 18th century, the French East India Company and its other European counterparts employed locally recruited soldiers within India, mainly consisting of infantry designated as "sepoys". The largest of these Indian forces, trained along European lines, was that belonging to the British East India Company.[1] The term "sepoy" is still used in the modern Indian, Pakistan and Nepalese armies, where it denotes the rank of private.
 

Leftyhunter

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@Leftyhunter , I found you whole armies owned by the East India Company... They fought in a lot of wars...


snip...


The presidency armies were the armies of the three presidencies of the East India Company's rule in India, later the forces of the British Crown in India, composed primarily of Indian sepoys. The presidency armies were named after the presidencies: the Bengal Army, the Madras Army and the Bombay Army. Initially, only Europeans served as commissioned or non-commissioned officers. In time, Indian Army units were garrisoned from Peshawar in the north, to Sind in the west, and to Rangoon in the east. The army was engaged in the wars to extend British control in India (the Mysore, Maratha and Sikh wars) and beyond (the Burma, Afghan, First and Second Opium Wars, and the Expedition to Abyssinia). The presidency armies, like the presidencies themselves, belonged to the Company until the Indian Rebellion of 1857, when the Crown took over the Company and its three armies. In 1895 the three presidency armies were merged into a united Indian Army.

here is the Indian unit...


snip...

Sepoy (/ˈsiːpɔɪ/) was originally the designation given to a professional Indian infantryman, usually armed with a musket, in the armies of the Mughal Empire. In the 18th century, the French East India Company and its other European counterparts employed locally recruited soldiers within India, mainly consisting of infantry designated as "sepoys". The largest of these Indian forces, trained along European lines, was that belonging to the British East India Company.[1] The term "sepoy" is still used in the modern Indian, Pakistan and Nepalese armies, where it denotes the rank of private.
The tradition of mercenary is still very much with us as there where tens of thousands of mercenaries in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Leftyhunter
 

5fish

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Dutch East India Company(VOC) had their mercenaries as well...


snip...

The Regiment de Meuron was a regiment of infantry originally raised in Switzerland in 1781 for service with the Dutch East India Company (VOC). At the time the French, Spanish, Dutch and other armies employed units of Swiss mercenaries. The regiment was named for its commander, Colonel Charles-Daniel de Meuron, who was born in Neuchâtel in 1738.

Here is a German one...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Württemberg_Cape_Regiment

snip...


The Württemberg Cape Regiment (German: Württembergisches Kapregiment) was a German military unit which was stationed at the Cape of Good Hope toward the end of the 18th century, in the service of the Dutch East India Company, and which played a considerable part in the cultural life of the Cape at that time.[1] In 1786 Duke Charles Eugene of Württemberg concluded an agreement with the DEIC to furnish a regiment of 2000 men to the DEIC for the sum of 300 000 guilders. Any soldiers falling away would be replaced by new recruits on payment of an annual subsidy of 65 000 guilders.[1]
 

5fish

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Japanese Mercenaries... Mainly by the Dutch East India Company(VOC)

snip...


In the early seventeenth century, Japanese fighters were employed across much of Southeast Asia, such as by the Spanish in the Philippines and by successive kings in Siam. The Dutch East India Company (VOC) also recruited Japanese mercenaries in large numbers to make up for the VOC’s perennial lack of military manpower. The VOC’s recruitment of Japanese mercenaries was unique, however, in that it set up a systematic program to recruit soldiers directly in Japan with the open permission of the Tokugawa shogun. Dutch East India Company officials were optimistic about what could be achieved in Japan and anticipated a great harvest of willing bodies to serve the Company’s military ambitions. Company officials saw the possibility of thousands of ferocious mercenaries marching outwards in service of the Company’s strategic aims. Although it was a dream based more on an illusion that anything of real substance, the VOC would recruit several hundred mercenaries during the decade spanning from 1613 to 1623 from the Company base in Hirado in western Japan.

This excerpt comes from a bold plan presented for the Dutch Empire in Asia by Jan Pieterszoon Coen, who was the Governor-General, first from 1619-23, and then again from 1627-29. Coen was a firm believer in the value of Japanese mercenaries and he dispatched a string of letters to his subordinates ordering them to recruit as many of these soldiers as possible. Japanese soldiers featured in his most ambitious plans. Rather than being condemned to the defensive, the Company should, Coen wrote, go onto the attack, striking at the great Iberian centers of power: the bustling Portuguese entrepôt of Macao and the heavily fortified Spanish colony at Manila. The key to this multi-pronged assault, Coen believed, was the participation of large numbers of Japanese mercenaries.


Here is this article....

In the early seventeenth century, Japanese fighters found employment across Southeast Asia. In Siam, successive kings deployed a large contingent of these troops; in the Philippines Japanese recruits engaged in the bloody suppression of Chinese revolts on behalf of their Spanish masters; and in Cambodia, Japanese soldiers bolstered local forces gathered to resist a potential invasion. The Dutch East India Company was unique, however, in that it set up a systematic program to recruit hundreds of these soldiers directly in Japan with the open permission of the Tokugawa shogun. Beginning in 1613, the Company set out to recruit hundreds of mercenaries from Japan to wage war on its behalf across Southeast Asia. Over the next decade until 1623, the Company would recruit hundreds of mercenaries from its base in Hirado in western Japan. In addition to service in garrisons, Japanese mercenaries featured in most major VOC campaigns in Southeast Asia between 1613 and 1623. They participated in an attack on the Spanish stronghold of Tidore in 1613, in an expedition against the Banda archipelago in May 1615, in the siege of Jakarta in 1619, and in the final, brutal conquest of Banda in 1621.

here is this....


snip...

The first non-European troops ever to be incorporated into the VOC forces were 70 Japanese samurai, recruited as early as 1612. The head of the Hirado factory wasn’t the first European to decide to make use of the fighting skills of the Japanese, as the Portuguese and Spaniards had done so before. More Japanese were hired since, until the Tokugawa regime forbade the practice in 1621.[1] They were the only ones for a while: in the first decades of the VOC’s activities, mutual trust and understanding between the VOC and various local societies was as yet not of such a nature that it would be conceivable that Asians would fight with or for the Company.[2]
 

5fish

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Here is a link and the Mongols broke their army into ethic groups... conquering China...


snip...

A distinctive feature of the military system was an ethnic separation between Mongols and Chinese. There were four types of troops, namely Mongolian troops (Menggu jun 蒙古軍), tanmači troops (Chinese transcription tanmachi 探馬赤軍), Chinese troops (Hanjun 漢軍), and new Chinese troops (xinfujun 新附軍).
 

5fish

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@Leftyhunter found another army .... half an army.... Turkish people and Russians... link to get the breakdown of the army...

.

snip...

The Russian Caucasus Army (Russian: Кавказскaя армия) of World War I was the Russian field army that fought in the Caucasus Campaign and Persian Campaign of World War I. It was renowned for inflicting heavy casualties on the opposing forces of the Ottoman Empire, particularly at the Battle of Sarikamish. It was also known for its extremely diverse ethnic composition, consisting of units from throughout the Russian Empire and both soldiers and officers from the many ethnic communities settled since the 1877-78 Russo-Turkish War in the militarily administered Kars Oblast in the Russian Transcaucasus. These included Georgians, Caucasus Greeks, and Armenians - the latter in particular strongly represented among both the soldiers and senior officers - as well as ethnic Russians and Ukrainians.

Here is a link to the complete breakdown of the Russian in WW1....


snip...

A peacetime order of battle of the Russian Army for July of 1914, listing all corps, divisions, brigades, regiments, and independent battalions of infantry, cavalry, artillery, and engineers with their garrison locations. All support, technical, administrative, supply, medical, and staff troops and units are also included with their locations and assignments. Every kind of unit, from Siberian rifles to the Chevalier Guards to the Kuban Cossacks, from the fortress of Brest-Litovsk to the garrison of Vladivostok, from the gendarmes of Warsaw to the grenadiers of Moscow, from the Finland rifle brigades to the Turkestan army corps, all are named and located.
 
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Leftyhunter

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@Leftyhunter found another army .... half an army.... Turkish people and Russians... link to get the breakdown of the army...

.

snip...

The Russian Caucasus Army (Russian: Кавказскaя армия) of World War I was the Russian field army that fought in the Caucasus Campaign and Persian Campaign of World War I. It was renowned for inflicting heavy casualties on the opposing forces of the Ottoman Empire, particularly at the Battle of Sarikamish. It was also known for its extremely diverse ethnic composition, consisting of units from throughout the Russian Empire and both soldiers and officers from the many ethnic communities settled since the 1877-78 Russo-Turkish War in the militarily administered Kars Oblast in the Russian Transcaucasus. These included Georgians, Caucasus Greeks, and Armenians - the latter in particular strongly represented among both the soldiers and senior officers - as well as ethnic Russians and Ukrainians.

Here is a link to the complete breakdown of the Russian in WW1....


snip...

A peacetime order of battle of the Russian Army for July of 1914, listing all corps, divisions, brigades, regiments, and independent battalions of infantry, cavalry, artillery, and engineers with their garrison locations. All support, technical, administrative, supply, medical, and staff troops and units are also included with their locations and assignments. Every kind of unit, from Siberian rifles to the Chevalier Guards to the Kuban Cossacks, from the fortress of Brest-Litovsk to the garrison of Vladivostok, from the gendarmes of Warsaw to the grenadiers of Moscow, from the Finland rifle brigades to the Turkestan army corps, all are named and located.
Ethnically diverse military units are not unique or unusual. By the same token as we have seen segregated militaries have existed until at least 2015 when the IDF didpanded the Sword Battalion although they kept the Bedouin Tracker Units which makes perfect sense.
Segregated militaries and work very well or not so well as can intergrated militaries ; there are so many variables.
Left
 

5fish

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Would this regiment not be a segregated unit... it made up of Americans not Brits or Walsh... Troy's... fought in a few battles...


The Prince of Wales' American Regiment was a volunteer regiment of Loyalists in the American Revolution organized in 1776 and 1777 by Montfort Browne, former governor of the Bahamas.[2][3] Recruits were largely from among Connecticut Loyalists.[4][5]

Here a site all about this unit...


snip...

Commanded by the immodest Montfort BROWNE, Governor of the Island of New Providence, this regiment was to be the 1st battalion of a "brigade," often referred to as Governor BROWNE's Brigade. Even though this brigade never materialized as envisioned, the officers and men of the Prince of Wales' American Regiment wrote their history at such places as Danbury, Newport, Charlestown, Hanging Rock, George Town, Friday's Ferry and Cowpens.
 
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Leftyhunter

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Would this regiment not be a segregated unit... it made up of Americans not Brits or Walsh... Troy's... fought in a few battles...


The Prince of Wales' American Regiment was a volunteer regiment of Loyalists in the American Revolution organized in 1776 and 1777 by Montfort Browne, former governor of the Bahamas.[2][3] Recruits were largely from among Connecticut Loyalists.[4][5]

Here a site all about this unit...


snip...

Commanded by the immodest Montfort BROWNE, Governor of the Island of New Providence, this regiment was to be the 1st battalion of a "brigade," often referred to as Governor BROWNE's Brigade. Even though this brigade never materialized as envisioned, the officers and men of the Prince of Wales' American Regiment wrote their history at such places as Danbury, Newport, Charlestown, Hanging Rock, George Town, Friday's Ferry and Cowpens.
Unfortunately the site has a green bar obstructing half the text. From what I read the Story Regiments could fight well but didn't get respect from the British Army. The most notable Tory Regiment was the" Ethiopian Regiment" composed of freed slaves who were not descended from Ethiopians but of course from West Africa.
Leftyhunter
 

5fish

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I found this Indian regiment led by white and Indian officers... It is called: Cherokee Regiment: Colonel Gideon Morgan... I found one battle it fought at famous in its day, The Battle of Horseshoe Bend.

Here is the Muster Roll... @diane , notice the names Colonel Path Killer and Major The Ridge as officers... They have wiki pages...


here is another muster roll...


Here is Path Killer...


Here is The Ridge...


the battle....


Here is another there were other notables at the battle... ChieF John Ross , Sam Houston,


snip...
 

5fish

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Here it seems most of the New Mexico union units were majority Hispanic... at least in name...

Here is a link to to the muster rolls of the New Mexico units during the civil war... Hispanic names abound...

 

Leftyhunter

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Here is the Union First New Mexico Regiment made up mostly of Hispanics....

snip... Muster roll...

https://nmahgp.genealogyvillage.com/Military/1st_regimentnminfold1.htm

here is wiki but not much...

The First New Mexico was not a Segregated unit . It was composed of locally recruited men but it was not a De Jure segregated unit. In the history of the US military only AAs and in WWII Japanese Americans were officially segregated. There were some all American Indian units but that was because it was just easier to have men who spoke the same language and culture to be together. There were American Indians in a Michigan Sharpshooter regiment although they had their own companies. There were Indians that served in intergrated units.

Japanese men were only segregated during WWII.
Leftyhunter
 

5fish

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Now wait... Did you look at the link with the muster rolls of all New Mexico civil war ear units... not a lot of non Hispanics...
 

5fish

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Here this unit was an independent command lead by an Irishman...

Graydon's Independent Co., NM Mounted Volunteers (3 mo, 1861- 1862)
 

Leftyhunter

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Now wait... Did you look at the link with the muster rolls of all New Mexico civil war ear units... not a lot of non Hispanics...
During the ACW the New Mexico Territory was almost all Hispanic that doesn't mean the locally recruited men were de jure segregated.
Leftyhunter
 
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