Other Segregated militaries and challenges of integration

diane

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I have never seen documentation that black men actually fought under Forrest's command. Jews have served in various militaries well before the ACW.
The first racially US intergrated troops would have to wait for the Korean War.
The only racially intergrated armies in WWII would be the Brazilian Army in Italy and the German Arabian Free Corps.
The first racially intergrated armies would be does of Columbia, Venezuela and Brazil but not necessarily racial equality see the Brazilian Navy " revolt of the Lash".
Kirk's Raiders
Oh, yes, there's quite a bit of documentation, especially in Union reports, of blacks among Forrest's men. Officially they were teamsters and other laborers but when there was a pinch, they went forward with everybody else. There were, depending, between 4 and 8 black men in the escort all the time. Jakob Gauss, a German Jew, was Forrest's intrepid bugler - his bugle was so full of holes he almost couldn't use it! There were at least four Choctaw/Cherokees - that I can document as they were my great-uncles and granddad. Loyalty, ability, courage - all hand picked. Officially, Forrest's escort was lily white, but he really didn't care what you were...and if anybody else did, they'd better not say anything about it!
 

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Oh, yes, there's quite a bit of documentation, especially in Union reports, of blacks among Forrest's men. Officially they were teamsters and other laborers but when there was a pinch, they went forward with everybody else. There were, depending, between 4 and 8 black men in the escort all the time. Jakob Gauss, a German Jew, was Forrest's intrepid bugler - his bugle was so full of holes he almost couldn't use it! There were at least four Choctaw/Cherokees - that I can document as they were my great-uncles and granddad. Loyalty, ability, courage - all hand picked. Officially, Forrest's escort was lily white, but he really didn't care what you were...and if anybody else did, they'd better not say anything about it!
So at best maybe four to eight men of color picked up a musket in an emergency.
American Indians fought in both segregated and intergrated units in the ACW I.e. the Thomas Legion CSA vs the Third North Carolina Mounted Infantry Union and one regiment from Michigan.
Post ACW American Indians were officially considered white although individual experiences might differ.
I am not aware of any military that officially segregated Jewish soldiers.
We would have to credit certain South American countries with having the first racially intergrated armies.
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diane

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The black men in Forrest's escort were selected to be there and were outfitted with uniforms and the works - even though they were called anything but soldiers, they were soldiers. Three of them were disabled by wounds from the war and Forrest got pensions for them.

It's a little harder with Indians. Sometimes they were segregated sometimes they weren't. There's at least one case of a pair of Cherokees who were literally run out of an all-white Union unit stationed in east Tennessee. Jakob Gauss wasn't the only Jew among Forrest's troops - haven't found any evidence he or any of them were discriminated against. (In fact, the guys would go out of their way to find meat other than salt pork or bacon for them to eat.)

The thing with Forrest's command was he put it together and if anybody didn't like it...that was tough!
 

rittmeister

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So at best maybe four to eight men of color picked up a musket in an emergency.
American Indians fought in both segregated and intergrated units in the ACW I.e. the Thomas Legion CSA vs the Third North Carolina Mounted Infantry Union and one regiment from Michigan.
Post ACW American Indians were officially considered white although individual experiences might differ.
I am not aware of any military that officially segregated Jewish soldiers.
We would have to credit certain South American countries with having the first racially intergrated armies.
Kirk's Raiders
kirky, diane ain't one of those 'thousands of black dudes fought for the confederacy'-gals.

.... to be quite clear what she states is above my knowledge (that's why i'm doing the other stuff-stuff) - burt she ain't a neo confed in any way. PERIOD !!

thanks, rittmeister
 

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kirky, diane ain't one of those 'thousands of black dudes fought for the confederacy'-gals.

.... to be quite clear what she states is above my knowledge (that's why i'm doing the other stuff-stuff) - burt she ain't a neo confed in any way. PERIOD !!

thanks, rittmeister
Did I say @diane was? I just pointed out a black man picking up a gun once in a while does not an intergrated military make.
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diane

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Did I say @diane was? I just pointed out a black man picking up a gun once in a while does not an intergrated military make.
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It wasn't just once in a while - some of these men were regular members of Forrest's escort. There's a picture of two of them attending an escort reunion in 1908 in Tennessee. Soldiers? No - their pensions listed them as servants.

It wasn't an officially integrated unit but people from a variety of races, religions, etc served in it together...because Forrest picked them to serve in it. While it wasn't so true in other areas, in the general's escort it was his personal choosing who was in it and who was not. There were several other officers in other units who had their slaves in attendance, and those slaves also went into a fight if it was necessary. That's why there was a good number of blacks among Forrest's troops. None of them were ever called soldiers - even if they got shot for being one!
 

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It wasn't just once in a while - some of these men were regular members of Forrest's escort. There's a picture of two of them attending an escort reunion in 1908 in Tennessee. Soldiers? No - their pensions listed them as servants.

It wasn't an officially integrated unit but people from a variety of races, religions, etc served in it together...because Forrest picked them to serve in it. While it wasn't so true in other areas, in the general's escort it was his personal choosing who was in it and who was not. There were several other officers in other units who had their slaves in attendance, and those slaves also went into a fight if it was necessary. That's why there was a good number of blacks among Forrest's troops. None of them were ever called soldiers - even if they got shot for being one!
I can't find the source but I would wager South American militaries were far more progressive then anyone in the ACW in terms of racial intergration of the military. Now it is true that the Brazilian Navy was unfortunately very cruel to their sailor's of color resulting in " the Revolt of the Lash" where Afro-Brazian sailor's siezed modern British made battleships and shelled Brazilian cities.
Not sure how men of color were treated in other South American militaries. It took almost thirty years for the US military to sort out it's racial equality issues.
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Well, there's a considerable difference between the American South and South America!
Yes an no. Both had Slavery and both had slave rebellions. Women of color were raped quite a bit in both sections. Being an indigenous person was no privilege in with section.
With the major caveat of Brazil all other countries in South America outlawed slavery.
Unlike the American South, South American countries didn't adopt de jure apartheid as did the American South or South Africa with some minor exceptions in Cuba.
As far as police brutality Brazilian police make even Southern American police look like angry Girl Scouts.
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Just stumbled on a great new find by Mark Felton " Japan's White Soldiers".
The Japanese formed a brigade of approximately 4k " White Russians" that is those Russians who during the Russian Civil War of 1918 to 1926? fought against the Communists. After their defeat many White Russians moved to Northern China where they served as a military force under control of the Shanghai Municipal Council then when the Japanese invaded they became a separate unit if the Army of the Manchuco Empire. These men saw a lot of combat against communist guerrllas and the Red Army including infiltration raids into the Soviet Union wearing Red Army uniforms.
At the end of WWII they had a very unhappy ending with both the Japanese and Soviets murdering them.
Leftyhunter
 

5fish

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segregated militaries
Well I think I found another unit for you @Kirk's Raider's because this thread gotten too big to read through quickly...


The Philippine Scouts (Filipino: Maghahanap ng Pilipinas or Hukbong Maghahanap ng Pilipinas) was a military organization of the United States Army from 1901 until after the end of World War II. These troops were generally Filipinos and Filipino-Americans assigned to the United States Army Philippine Department, under the command of American commissioned officers (though a handful of Filipino Americans received commissions from the United States Military Academy). Philippine Scout units were given the suffix "(PS)", to distinguish them from other U.S. Army units.

1599100689469.png
Philippine Scouts shoulder sleeve insignia from 1921–1947 was the head of the carabao (water buffalo) which symbolized the Philippines. The colors red and gold represented the islands' Spanish colonial roots
 

5fish

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I think I got @Kirk's Raider's a twofer today a all lantinx unit from WWone to the Korean war. It was mainly a Puerto Rican unit. The 65th Infantry Regiment...


The 65th Infantry Regiment, nicknamed "The Borinqueneers" during the Korean War[1] for the original Taíno Indian name for Puerto Rico (Borinquen), is a Puerto Rican regiment of the United States Army. The regiment's motto is Honor et Fidelitas, Latin for Honor and Fidelity. The Army Appropriation Bill created by an act of Congress on 2 March 1899, authorized the creation of the first body of native troops in Puerto Rico. On 30 June 1901, the "Porto Rico Provisional Regiment of Infantry" was organized.[2] On 1 July 1908, Congress incorporated the regiment into the Regular Army as the Puerto Rico Regiment of Infantry, United States Army.[3] On 14 May 1917, the Regiment was activated and additional men were assigned, with the unit being sent to serve at Panama.[3] On 4 June 1920, the Regiment was renamed 65th Infantry.[3] During World War II, the Regiment saw action throughout Europe, especially France and Germany, participating in Naples-Foggia, Rome-Arno and Rhin.[4] Several Purple Hearts were awarded posthumously to members of the 65th Regiment. The 65th Infantry Regiment participated in World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and in what is known by the United States Department of Defense as the Global War on Terrorism. On 10 June 2014, the 65th Infantry was awarded the Congressional Gold Medal.[5]
 

Kirk's Raider's

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I think I got @Kirk's Raider's a twofer today a all lantinx unit from WWone to the Korean war. It was mainly a Puerto Rican unit. The 65th Infantry Regiment...


The 65th Infantry Regiment, nicknamed "The Borinqueneers" during the Korean War[1] for the original Taíno Indian name for Puerto Rico (Borinquen), is a Puerto Rican regiment of the United States Army. The regiment's motto is Honor et Fidelitas, Latin for Honor and Fidelity. The Army Appropriation Bill created by an act of Congress on 2 March 1899, authorized the creation of the first body of native troops in Puerto Rico. On 30 June 1901, the "Porto Rico Provisional Regiment of Infantry" was organized.[2] On 1 July 1908, Congress incorporated the regiment into the Regular Army as the Puerto Rico Regiment of Infantry, United States Army.[3] On 14 May 1917, the Regiment was activated and additional men were assigned, with the unit being sent to serve at Panama.[3] On 4 June 1920, the Regiment was renamed 65th Infantry.[3] During World War II, the Regiment saw action throughout Europe, especially France and Germany, participating in Naples-Foggia, Rome-Arno and Rhin.[4] Several Purple Hearts were awarded posthumously to members of the 65th Regiment. The 65th Infantry Regiment participated in World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and in what is known by the United States Department of Defense as the Global War on Terrorism. On 10 June 2014, the 65th Infantry was awarded the Congressional Gold Medal.[5]
Good catch I had no clue. Ironically some Porto Ricans immigrated to South Africa where they served in white units.
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O' Be Joyful

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I think I got @Kirk's Raider's a twofer today a all lantinx unit from WWone to the Korean war. It was mainly a Puerto Rican unit. The 65th Infantry Regiment...


The 65th Infantry Regiment, nicknamed "The Borinqueneers" during the Korean War[1] for the original Taíno Indian name for Puerto Rico (Borinquen), is a Puerto Rican regiment of the United States Army. The regiment's motto is Honor et Fidelitas, Latin for Honor and Fidelity. The Army Appropriation Bill created by an act of Congress on 2 March 1899, authorized the creation of the first body of native troops in Puerto Rico. On 30 June 1901, the "Porto Rico Provisional Regiment of Infantry" was organized.[2] On 1 July 1908, Congress incorporated the regiment into the Regular Army as the Puerto Rico Regiment of Infantry, United States Army.[3] On 14 May 1917, the Regiment was activated and additional men were assigned, with the unit being sent to serve at Panama.[3] On 4 June 1920, the Regiment was renamed 65th Infantry.[3] During World War II, the Regiment saw action throughout Europe, especially France and Germany, participating in Naples-Foggia, Rome-Arno and Rhin.[4] Several Purple Hearts were awarded posthumously to members of the 65th Regiment. The 65th Infantry Regiment participated in World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and in what is known by the United States Department of Defense as the Global War on Terrorism. On 10 June 2014, the 65th Infantry was awarded the Congressional Gold Medal.[5]

Throw 'em some more paper towels after the next hurricane. :(
 

Jim Klag

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Well I think I found another unit for you @Kirk's Raider's because this thread gotten too big to read through quickly...


The Philippine Scouts (Filipino: Maghahanap ng Pilipinas or Hukbong Maghahanap ng Pilipinas) was a military organization of the United States Army from 1901 until after the end of World War II. These troops were generally Filipinos and Filipino-Americans assigned to the United States Army Philippine Department, under the command of American commissioned officers (though a handful of Filipino Americans received commissions from the United States Military Academy). Philippine Scout units were given the suffix "(PS)", to distinguish them from other U.S. Army units.

View attachment 3043
Philippine Scouts shoulder sleeve insignia from 1921–1947 was the head of the carabao (water buffalo) which symbolized the Philippines. The colors red and gold represented the islands' Spanish colonial roots
They were distinguished from "other" US Army units for the very valid reason that they were not in the US Army. Even back then only US citizens were in the Army.
 

5fish

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Here I think old @Kirk's Raider's, I found another 1st for you... He led the 1st all black regiment in history of Europe... a great duelist with a sword...

Headed by the acclaimed classical musician and fencer Joseph Boulogne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges, the Légion franche de cavalerie des Américains et du Midi (Free Cavalry Legion of the Americans and the South [of France]) soon played a crucial role in the advancement of the republican cause.

In 1789, Saint-George embraced the French revolution and its ideals of freedom, equality and fraternity and led a legion of black men, the "Légion Franche de Cavalerie des Américains et du Midi",(Free Cavalry Legion of the Americans and the South [of France]) to defend it. He participated in a campaign headed by blacks in Paris to abolish the slave trade and slavery.

I found the story of this Black regiment.... read from page 96...

 

Kirk's Raider's

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Here I think old @Kirk's Raider's, I found another 1st for you... He led the 1st all black regiment in history of Europe... a great duelist with a sword...

Headed by the acclaimed classical musician and fencer Joseph Boulogne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges, the Légion franche de cavalerie des Américains et du Midi (Free Cavalry Legion of the Americans and the South [of France]) soon played a crucial role in the advancement of the republican cause.

In 1789, Saint-George embraced the French revolution and its ideals of freedom, equality and fraternity and led a legion of black men, the "Légion Franche de Cavalerie des Américains et du Midi",(Free Cavalry Legion of the Americans and the South [of France]) to defend it. He participated in a campaign headed by blacks in Paris to abolish the slave trade and slavery.

I found the story of this Black regiment.... read from page 96...

Good find!
Kirk's Raiders
 

5fish

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Did you their were Haitian troop in the French army that helped us win our freedom from England ? The Haitians troops was regiment size... And had a name... @Kirk's Raider's


The French Army’s First Black Unit
The largest all black regiments to fight in the American War of Independence was neither American nor British, but French. The Chasseurs Volontaires de Saint-Domingue was a 550-man unit from what is now Haiti and the Dominican Republic. The unit was raised in 1779 for free black volunteers on the island of Saint-Domingue. It was the first black regiment in the history of the French Army. Shortly after being formed, the regiment was added to the 3,000-strong French expeditionary force that was dispatched to aid the rebellion. Upon arriving in the American south, the Chasseurs took part in the second battle of Savannah. While the joint Franco-American force captured the city in the autumn of that year, a British counter attack led to the greatest defeat of the revolution for the Continentals. More than 800 French and American troops were killed or wounded. The reversal led to a French retreat from Georgia. The Chasseurs were assigned to cover the withdrawal, during which time they held off a British attack long enough for the main French force to make it to safety. The unit was pulled from the American war and returned to Saint Domingue where it would be disbanded in 1783. While their time in the Revolutionary War was limited, the battle experience the Chasseurs gained would help the cause of Haitian independence 10 years later. The first three leaders of the post revolutionary Haiti were all members of the regiment. [4]
 

5fish

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There is a statue to them in Savannah, GA. to the Haitian soldiers...

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Haitian soldiers at Battle of Savannah statue, Franklin Square, Savannah, Georgia, June 2017

Here is a look at their one action in America...


snip...

Nevertheless, due to their in-between status, some men joined the Chasseurs-Volontaires formed after the March 12, 1779 royal ordinance. They became part of the French command which supported the Continental Army in Savannah. In fact, the gens de couleurs outnumbered the 500 American troops at the Battle of Savannah. Their role in the battle was also significant because they were sent in as scouts before the beginning of the hostilities on September 8, 1779. During the course of the battle, they were considered one of the most homogeneous and efficient allied group, fighting the English troops with obstinacy and boldness. But the knowledge the British had concerning the American plan of attack, due to a leak of information given by American deserters, impeded any chance of victory. The Chasseurs-Volontaires military group represented a large part of the 168 killed and 411 wounded soldiers in the French ranks following the battle.

The siege of Savannah or the Second Battle of Savannah 1779...


Wiki take...

 
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