Negotiating with the secessionists.

5fish

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
17,383
Reaction score
5,747
He is asking you to weigh in with your arguments on dealing with secession.
We only be repeating the Southern misconstrued view of the Constitution. I think the best argument is Jefferson's social contract argument that future generations are not bound by their forefather's decisions and every 20 years people renew the constitution with a vote. This was not the secessionist argument during the secession crisis. I would argue the states not renewing the Constitution get to leave the Union. The South should have proposed this at the latest during the Nullification crisis and created an amendment to put this mechanism in the Constitution. In truth, the vote should not be by state but by the nation as a whole is another question.

Nullification crisis

The Constitution does not say a state cannot secede from the Union and the argument becomes if the Constitution is a continuation of the Articles of Confederation or a new nation with a new government. The South argues for clarification and demands an opted-out cause in law.

Perpetual Union - Wikipedia

I think the Perpetual Union theory can be beaten in debate for one thing we list Washington as our first President but if we were a perpetual union we had 14 presidents before him. We do not count them so something changed like we became a new nation under the constitution... The bonds under the Articles of Confederation were voided...

America's Secret: The Presidents Before George Washington

The Hall of Presidents Before Washington

The arguments about protecting State Rights or a Way of Life or Property Rights of Slavers do not apply to the Constitution.


https://www.britannica.com/topic/nullification-crisis
 

TomEvans

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2025
Messages
509
Reaction score
17
We only be repeating the Southern misconstrued view of the Constitution. I think the best argument is Jefferson's social contract argument that future generations are not bound by their forefather's decisions and every 20 years people renew the constitution with a vote. This was not the secessionist argument during the secession crisis. I would argue the states not renewing the Constitution get to leave the Union. The South should have proposed this at the latest during the Nullification crisis and created an amendment to put this mechanism in the Constitution. In truth, the vote should not be by state but by the nation as a whole is another question.

Nullification crisis

The Constitution does not say a state cannot secede from the Union and the argument becomes if the Constitution is a continuation of the Articles of Confederation or a new nation with a new government. The South argues for clarification and demands an opted-out cause in law.

Perpetual Union - Wikipedia

I think the Perpetual Union theory can be beaten in debate for one thing we list Washington as our first President but if we were a perpetual union we had 14 presidents before him. We do not count them so something changed like we became a new nation under the constitution... The bonds under the Articles of Confederation were voided...

America's Secret: The Presidents Before George Washington

The Hall of Presidents Before Washington

The arguments about protecting State Rights or a Way of Life or Property Rights of Slavers do not apply to the Constitution.


https://www.britannica.com/topic/nullification-crisis
The US government never claimed that the Constitution formed a national union among the states as 13 formerly-sovereign nations.

It claimed (and still does), that the Declaration of Independence formed a national union, among the 13 colonies:

jackson.png

And this was Congress's "historical basis" by which Congress passed Jackson's "Force Bill," authorizing military force against the individual states under claim of national authority.

The Constitution, Jackson claimed, simply provided the necessary enforcement-mechanisms to this existing "national government."

And this fabricated "1776 national union" theory, their was the same legal argument, by which Lincoln claimed the states always had a political superior in "the Union," from the moment they stopped being colonies of Great Britain:

lincoln.png
The Constitution, Lincoln held, simply continued the "national union," that this supposedly created.

Descending from these general principles, we find the proposition that in legal contemplation the Union is perpetual confirmed by the history of the Union itself. The Union is much older than the Constitution. It was formed, in fact, by the Articles of Association in 1774. It was matured and continued by the Declaration of Independence in 1776. It was further matured, and the faith of all the then thirteen States expressly plighted and engaged that it should be perpetual, by the Articles of Confederation in 1778. And finally, in 1787, one of the declared objects for ordaining and establishing the Constitution was "to form a more perfect Union."

But if destruction of the Union by one or by a part only of the States be lawfully possible, the Union is less perfect than before the Constitution, having lost the vital element of perpetuity.


It follows from these views that no State upon its own mere motion can lawfully get out of the Union; that resolves and ordinances to that effect are legally void, and that acts of violence within any State or States against the authority of the United States are insurrectionary or revolutionary, according to circumstances.
And he even found in the Constitution, the right to take away free speech:

Lincoln censorship 3.png

So Lincoln's "negotiations" were all simply under premise their being in "rebellion" against a mythical "national union--" which the South correctly refused, standing on their historical claim of union only being international among separate sovereign nations, ala the UK in Brexit:

South Carolina.png

Whether the South pushed this legal argument hard enough, is debatable; but irrelevant to the historical fact of of their national sovereignty-- and the absence of the Union's, rendering it to be simply a totalitarian coup of conspiracy an elite group, to seize power over 34 sovereign nations through fabricated history and mass-deception-- which remains in place to this day:

obama Civil War final.png
 

Attachments

TomEvans

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2025
Messages
509
Reaction score
17
I guess its in the news as there was a piece of nonsense from Politico about avoiding the US Civil War through negotiation.
Just one problem: there was nothing to negotiate, due to an irreconcilable difference:

  1. The Union claimed that the American Revolution formed a national union of 13 federated member-states in 1776:


    lincoln.png

    While:
  2. the Confederate states held that the American Revolution formed thirteen fully-sovereign nations in a voluntary international union in 1776:

    South Carolina.png
I've written elsewhere, how the Confederate states stood on legal fact in this matter; specifically, how the states always intended to form an international union of 13 sovereign nations, from the Declaration of Independence: July 4, 1776:

dec.png


And this was distinguished from what the Law of Nations defined in Book I, Chapter I, §11: “Of a state that has passed under the dominion of another:”

But a people that has passed under the dominion of another is no longer a state, and can no longer avail itself directly of the law of nations. Such were the nations and kingdoms which the Romans rendered subject to their empire; the generality even of those whom they honoured with the name of friends and allies no longer formed real states. Within themselves, they were governed by their own laws and magistrates; but without, they were in every thing obliged to follow the orders of Rome; they dared not of themselves either to make war or contract alliances; and could not treat with nations.
Therefore, since the states could “make war, contract alliances, treat with other nations,“ and “do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do;” the states were not under the dominion of another, and thus were an international union among 13 separate fully-sovereign nations:

Law of Nations.png

Which the states indeed expressly asserted as such:

Articles of Confederation 3.jpg

Meanwhile The Declaration of Independence (and other American Revolution documents) was framed in the language of the "Law of Nations," to justify the American colonies' separation from Great Britain to the world, and to gain international recognition and support.
This established the new United States as independent actors with the power to engage in diplomacy, war, and commerce, just like any other sovereign nations. And the states were individually recognized as sovereign nations in the Treaty of Paris:


Treaty of paris3.png

So this legally recognized the states as 13 sovereign nations in an international union.

Thus while some believe that the US government claimed that the Constitution unified these 13 sovereign nations under a national union; in reality the US government never claimed this; but only claimed that it continued the supposed "1776 national union" that Lincoln claimed (above).

(In reality, the Constitution was an act of secession from the Confederation, by 12 of the 13 states:

Madison Federalist 40.png

And thus these twelve states were bound by the unanimity requirement, only from amending the Articles of Confederation: not from leaving the Confederation entirely to form their own new and separate union under the Constitution (and which the US government would later claim was "treason" and "rebellion" against what it claimed to be the same union formed in 1776-- when some of the states simply did it again in 1861).

So any talk of "negotiating with secessionists," would be comparable to the EU negotiating with the UK over Brexit, under threat of Total War-- i.e. out of the question-- while any invasion and occupation under claim of "national union" by the internal factions therein, would be properly titled a totalitarian coup.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

5fish

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
17,383
Reaction score
5,747
The Constitution has a supremacy clause giving it legal authority over state laws when conflicts arrive in legal terms ... A state most likely can not legally secede without the Federal government allowing it in law... Modern Federal law says succession is nconstitutional .. . A big bar to get over...

Yes, the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution establishes that federal laws are the supreme law of the land, giving them legal authority over conflicting state and local laws. This means that when a state law conflicts with a valid federal law, the federal law takes precedence and the state law is unenforceable.
 

TomEvans

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2025
Messages
509
Reaction score
17
The Constitution has a supremacy clause giving it legal authority over state laws when conflicts arrive in legal terms ...
The state governments didn't ratify the Constitution, the state electorates did.
Wrong union!

A state most likely can not legally secede without the Federal government allowing it in law... Modern Federal law says succession is nconstitutional .. . A big bar to get over...
The US government never claimed that the states ever gave up their national sovereignty via the Constitution.

Yes, the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution establishes that federal laws are the supreme law of the land, giving them legal authority over conflicting state and local laws. This means that when a state law conflicts with a valid federal law, the federal law takes precedence and the state law is unenforceable.
[/QUOTE]
Again: the state government didn't ratify the Constitution, the state electorate did.
 
Last edited:

5fish

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
17,383
Reaction score
5,747
the state government didn't ratify the Constitution, the state electorate did.
WE the people... you seem to overlook this and with a more perfect. union, as well
 

TomEvans

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2025
Messages
509
Reaction score
17
WE the people... you seem to overlook this and with a more perfect. union, as well
The US government does not claim that the original 13 states EVER gave up their national sovereignty to form a de jure sovereign national union.

What part of that, do you NOT understand? But the way you keep flip-flopping on this, you might concur with Lincoln to claim that they never HAD any... that's why you can't pick one lie and stick with it.
 

5fish

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
17,383
Reaction score
5,747
What part of that, do you NOT understand? But the way you keep flip-flopping on this, you might concur with Lincoln to claim that they never HAD any... that's why you can't pick one lie and stick with it.
Dogma...

Again: the state government didn't ratify the Constitution, the state electorate did.
I am pointing out to you the process of ratification, and the Constitution: the people had their say...
 

TomEvans

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2025
Messages
509
Reaction score
17
I am pointing out to you the process of ratification, and the Constitution: the people had their say...
And they SAID that their 13 de jure sovereign nations formed a union-- which neither they nor the US government EVER claimed as surrendering national sovereignty to form a NATIONAL union.

So it's all settled: the Constitution formed an international union of 13 sovereign nations, each supremely ruled by its respective electorate.
 

jgoodguy

Webmaster
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
7,937
Reaction score
4,640
And they SAID that their 13 de jure sovereign nations formed a union-- which neither they nor the US government EVER claimed as surrendering national sovereignty to form a NATIONAL union.

So it's all settled: the Constitution formed an international union of 13 sovereign nations, each supremely ruled by its respective electorate.
If we said that the evil Lincoln, placed the jackboot of the Union army on the Southern neck and ended CSA sovereignty would that help.
 

TomEvans

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2025
Messages
509
Reaction score
17
If we said that the evil Lincoln, placed the jackboot of the Union army on the Southern neck and ended CSA sovereignty would that help.
What do YOU say happened?

Because the 1783 Treaty of Paris expressly proclaims thirteen free, sovereign and independent states; while the US government never claims that they subsequently ever GAVE UP their sovereignty, freedom and independence to form a national union afterward.

So how do you explain the US government claiming in 1861, that they were NEVER free, sovereign and independent states?

Sometimes the truth is right in front of you... even when it's an elephant in a room.
 
Last edited:

TomEvans

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2025
Messages
509
Reaction score
17
The Civil War.

They won the Civil War.
"You keep using that word... I think it does not mean what you think it means."

A civil war is between citizens of the SAME free, sovereign and independent STATE.

"Free, sovereign, and independent states" refers to political entities with supreme, self-governing authority over their defined territory and people, free from external control, possessing the power to make their own laws, manage their economies, conduct foreign relations, and exist as equals in the international community, essentially having the highest authority within their borders and the right to act autonomously.

And from The Definitive Treaty of Peace 1783:

Article 1:
His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof.
So it was an international union of (then-34) free, sovereign and independent states; and thus the accurate descriptive word is SELF-COUP.

The US government was an international government among 34 free, sovereign and independent STATES; but which engaged a SELF-COUP in 1861, illegally seizing de facto power under the false claim that the union was always a free and independent STATE....

....and has done so ever since.

The 1861–1865 actions constituted an illegitimate self-coup enforcing a false perpetual union; but the military enforcement and Reconstruction occupation did not "legally change" state sovereignty (as no superior national authority legitimately existed to do so). Rather, it imposed de facto control through hostile occupation, suppressing the sovereign status of the states by force while retroactively denying their independence under a fabricated legal narrative.

Legally, each state's national sovereignty remains de jure intact as a popularly-sovereign nation post-1776, with the Constitution forming a voluntary international union among them, and the 1861 events constituting an illegitimate self-coup via deception—the electorate of each state could, in principle, lawfully challenge this imposition and assert its rightful sovereignty. The supreme authority resides with the people of each state, acting through mechanisms like specially convened ratifying-style conventions or direct democratic processes (e.g., referenda or initiatives where available), to recall delegated powers, nullify federal overreach, or even withdraw from the compact if it has been breached.
 
Last edited:

5fish

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
17,383
Reaction score
5,747
Legally, each state's national sovereignty remains de jure intact as a popularly-sovereign nation post-1776, with the Constitution forming a voluntary international union among them, and the 1861 events constituting an illegitimate self-coup via deception—the electorate of each state could, in principle, lawfully challenge this imposition and assert its rightful sovereignty. The supreme authority resides with the people of each state, acting through mechanisms like specially convened ratifying-style conventions or direct democratic processes (e.g., referenda or initiatives where available), to recall delegated powers, nullify federal overreach, or even withdraw from the compact if it has been breached.
You know sovereignty is not eternal but fleeting, and the states at the time of the civil war were not non-recognized de facto states but a state within a greater state...

The 1861–1865 actions constituted an illegitimate self-coup enforcing a false perpetual union; but the military enforcement and Reconstruction occupation did not "legally change" state sovereignty (as no superior national authority legitimately existed to do so). Rather, it imposed de facto control through hostile occupation, suppressing the sovereign status of the states by force while retroactively denying their independence under a fabricated legal narrative.
It was the Constitution that was everything, giving sovereignty to the people, not the states...

The US government was an international government among 34 free, sovereign and independent STATES; but which engaged a SELF-COUP in 1861, illegally seizing de facto power under the false claim that the union was always a free and independent STATE....
You chose to ignore the results of the Constitution and the Civil War, which ended the state's independence from the nation-state... If Lincoln did not do a self-coup, how many times do we have to debunk you, and how many times can you repeat your claim without ever answering the question and comments... "You sound like Forbes when he was running for president back in the day, every answer was his flat tax... " You answer everything with 13 sovereign nations and Lincoln's self coup... but they are not the answers...
 

TomEvans

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2025
Messages
509
Reaction score
17
You know sovereignty is not eternal but fleeting,

Unlike the historical FACT of it, which DOES NOT CHANGE... or the law that is BASED on it.

and the states at the time of the civil war were not non-recognized de facto states but a state within a greater state...

No; they never united to form a free, sovereign and independent STATE, as the 1861 US government CLAIMS they did IN 1776.

It was the Constitution that was everything, giving sovereignty to the people, not the states...

The people WERE the states--- thirteen FREE, SOVEREIGN AND INDEPENDENT STATES, to be exact; each being supremely ruled by its RESPECTIVE people.

The Constitution simply established each state electorate, as the DE FACTO supreme authority, over its respective de jure sovereign state (which was previously wielded by the respective state GOVERNMENT).

The US government DOES not-- and CANNOT-- claim that the Constitution created a single de jure sovereign nation, which was political superior to the individual states; because it claims that:

1. the Declaration of Independence had ALREADY DONE that in 1776, and that

2. the Constitution simply CONTINUED that single de jure sovereign nation.

But in reality, the states formed an international confederation of THIRTEEN de jure sovereign nations in 1776; and it was realized in 1783 under the Treaty of Paris.

Their "union" was simply a SERIES of international confederations, which independently CHOSE to form such-- AS thirteen de jure sovereign nations.

NOT "a single national union that was formed in 1776, which remains intact to this day." That NEVER HAPPENED.

You chose to ignore the results of the Constitution and the Civil War,
No, YOU choose to ignore the historical facts, which prove that the USA was only as SERIES of international unions among de jure popularly-sovereign nations; and that therefore this "Civil War" was actually a self-coup by an international government, to illegally seize de facto power over the international UNION of then-34 sovereign nations-- all under this false historical CLAIM that they formed a SINGLE free, sovereign and independent state in 1776.

And so the whole self-coup is exposed by the simple FALSITY of that claim.



which ended the state's independence from the nation-state...
There was NEVER a de jure sovereign nation-state, which was political superior to the states in 1776, as the US government has CLAIMED since 1861.

This illegal self-coup, only LEGALLY ended each state's DE FACTO authority-- all under the FALSE PRETEXT that the states formed a single de jure sovereign nation in 1776.

Legally, the self-coup did NOT-- and CANNOT--- remove any state's DE JURE national sovereignty; OR the de jure authority of each state's respective electorate OVER their respective state.

It only SUPPRESSED the DE FACTO authority of such, by force and misinformation; and so once the misinformation goes, de facto authority will REVERT to the respective state electorates.

So ever since 1861, the US government is simply a self-coup, in hostile occupation of 50 de jure popularly-sovereign nations.
 

5fish

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
17,383
Reaction score
5,747
. the Constitution simply CONTINUED that single de jure sovereign nation.
NO... We the people!

his illegal self-coup, only LEGALLY ended each state's DE FACTO authority-
A self coup for 160 years, think about that?

. the Declaration of Independence had ALREADY DONE that in 1776, and that
They free themselves into non-recognized de facto states... please describe the 13 colonies correctly once they free themselves... please, remember they create a nation state called the United States... please get the definitions correct...

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that, as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.

Unlike the historical FACT of it, which DOES NOT CHANGE... or the law that is BASED on it.
No, Sovereignty is not eternal... Here is the oldest independent state...

San Marino: Founded in 301 CE, it's the world's oldest republic and longest-standing independent state, surviving as an enclave within Italy.

How do you define sovereignty when it begins? Many nations claim sovereignty but have many forms of governance... Some nations have been conquered and reconquered, but claim that the old date of sovereignty should not be reinstated once they have been conquered and have regained freedom to a new date...

 

TomEvans

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2025
Messages
509
Reaction score
17
NO... We the people!
I'm just telling you what Lincoln and Congress CLAIMED: i.e. that the Declaration of Independence declared a single free, sovereign and independent state; and that the Constitution simply CONTINUED it.

Therefore it does NOT claim that the states EVER STOPPED being free, sovereign and independent states.

A self coup for 160 years, think about that?
Yes, it pretty messed up that truth can be suppressed for that long; but as John Adams said, "Facts are stubborn things" .

Legally, however, here's nothing to think about; there's no expiration-date for a state's sovereignty, freedom and independence against an international self-coup.

They free themselves into non-recognized de facto states...
No. They were recognized as 13 free, sovereign and independent states in the 1783 Treaty of Paris.



We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that, as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.

Notice that "free and independent states" is PLURAL-- in both the 1776 Declaration of Independence, AND the 1783 Treaty of Paris.

No, Sovereignty is not eternal...

Just indefinite; i.e. it remains until it's CHANGED--- WHICH THE US GOVERNMENT NEVER CLAIMS TO HAVE HAPPENED.

So by the US government's own admission, the states remain free, sovereign and independent states since 1783

How do you define sovereignty when it begins?
By the DATE clearly written on the Treaty of Paris, recognizing each state by name as "free, sovereign and independent" on November 30, 1783.
 

5fish

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
17,383
Reaction score
5,747
Notice that "free and independent states" is PLURAL-- in both the 1776 Declaration of Independence, AND the 1783 Treaty of Paris.
You notice in the name of The United States...

They were recognized as 13 free, sovereign and independent states in the 1783 Treaty of Paris.
NO, They had the trappings of a state, but there are rules to be considered a nation-state, not one of the 13 colonies ever achieved an individual act of nation-state status...

free and independent states"
But not a nation-state status ever.
 

TomEvans

Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2025
Messages
509
Reaction score
17
They were ALWAYS 13 free, sovereign and independent states, by any other label.

That was ALWAYS the agreement.
 
Top