My new Book released- Defending Dixie's Land: What Every American Should Know About The South And The Civil War

Bilbobaggins

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Reading assignments are not acceptable as evidence.
Agreed, and so please allow me some time and I will start where I do with my book. I think this is best, it will narrow the focus and allow feedback. I believe I start with the slaves food Consumption.
 

Bilbobaggins

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Where in here? You need to post a proper citation with page number and reference. We're not going to buy your book to get your references for a discussion after all.

Most of your sources are also 19th century men - some not all that accurate - the good reverend Dabney, for one. His bio of Stonewall Jackson contains many, many factual errors which have been shown to be errors by later scholars such as James I Robertson. There are some pre-war books you list which defend slavery - this was common during the run-up to the war as planters were eager to show the 'peculiar institution' was a good thing for all concerned. This defense of slavery was a perfectly obvious ploy to convince others of the good of it. There were also writings by slaves and free blacks which told a decidedly DIFFERENT story. I do not see writings by Frederick Douglass or other contemporary black writers of the same era. For a balanced and clear study, such input would be valuable.

It was always a great help to the planters to keep the slaves from contact with outsiders. Isolation works well to form a desired image. Americans outside the South didn't care a bunch about slavery down South...until the war brought them there to see it first hand, and the slaves were able to talk for themselves.

A moment's comment on your they-did-it-too argument about slavery. Non-sequitur. The subject, by the title of your book, is Southern slavery. Nobody else's is pertinent.

I do not think it a good idea to dismiss any source, southern, northern, free, slave etc, and you will notice that most of the sources I use are from Northern, European, or slaves themselves. You will be happy to know I quote Douglass, Booker T Washington, and others in my book.

But it seems the best thing to do is start making the case on each subject as in my book. So next week I will have time to start; as I posted earlier, the slaves' food consumption is where we will begin.
 

5fish

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The first source I will mention is Born in Slavery: Slave Narratives from the Federal Writers' Project, 1936 to 1938.

It is a collection of thousands of interviews of former slaves describing their experiences. While you will find hundreds of horrifying accounts and subhuman conditions, readers will be astonished at the far more numerous responses slaves gave; that is, they were not only content but happy.

I am impressed you did come when a good swing but missed. You are talking about memories. Which are not perfect and everyone's memories become corrupt over time. They did a study of Harvard students that fought in WW2 and interview them and almost all had a negative view of their wartime experiences in WW2 but they were interviewed over decades and as the years past their negative feeling about their wartime experiences of WW2 faded and became nostalgic. But, there were a few that could not shake their negative war-time experiences even decades later and their stories are the true stories of WW2, not those nostalgic ones.

Your slave oral history argument falls into this same dilemma with memory. Over time, the X-slaves who could process the negative events in their memories turned them to nostalgic look of their youth, and the ones who could not come turn their negative slave experiences into nostalgia are the true stories of slavery.

I could not find that study but I found this one... it not the same but...

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/33354508.pdf

This study suggests that there are patterns that World War II veterans follow in their process of memory construction and the type of narrative they choose to follow in their later recollections. The narratives veterans construct vary in detail based on the unique experiences of each veteran; however, despite these differences the narratives they give to their experience will be similar to one another because of the influence of collective memory and societal cues on memory over time.
 
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5fish

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Here is a look at our memory... Your memories are corrupt just talk to your siblings about past events and you will see your memories are similar and differ greatly... @Bilbobaggins , we are talking about 70 to 100-year-old persons... You will learn there are many types of memory too... click the link...

Memories can degrade over time, which leaves them susceptible to change. Lack of attention can also influence memories when we think we remember more than we actually do by automatically filling in the details. Memories are also extremely susceptible to personal and cultural influences. Eyewitness testimony, for example, can often be unreliable due to unconscious bias. Similarly, memories can also be warped by our emotional states and feelings.
Psychology, Memory, And The Brain | BetterHelp
 

5fish

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@Bilbobaggins , Here is a great short article about how nostalgia is used to deal with negative events in our lives.


Although nostalgia is universal, research has shown that a nostalgic yearning for the past is especially likely to occur during periods of transition, like maturing into adulthood or aging into retirement. Dislocation or alienation resulting from military conflict, moving to a new country or technological progress can also elicit nostalgia.

A 2015 study showed that nostalgic reminiscence can be a stabilizing force. It can strengthen our sense of personal continuity, reminding us that we possess a store of powerful memories that are deeply intertwined with our identity. The person who listened to his grandpa’s stories as a little boy, played youth baseball and partied with friends in high school is still that same person today.


I think your X-slaves fall into this...

The desire to escape into the imagined, idealized world of a prior era – even one you weren’t alive for – represents a different, independent type of nostalgia called historical nostalgia.
Historical nostalgia is often concurrent with a deep dissatisfaction with the present and a preference for the way things were long ago. Unlike personal nostalgia, someone who experiences historical nostalgia might have a more cynical perspective of the world, one colored by pain, trauma, regret or adverse childhood experiences.
 

jgoodguy

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I am impressed you did come when a good swing but missed. You are talking about memories. Which are not perfect and everyone's memories become corrupt over time. They did a study of Harvard students that fought in WW2 and interview them and almost all had a negative view of their wartime experiences in WW2 but they were interviewed over decades and as the years past their negative feeling about their wartime experiences of WW2 faded and became nostalgic. But, there were a few that could not shake their negative war-time experiences even decades later and their stories are the true stories of WW2, not those nostalgic ones.

Your slave oral history argument falls into this same dilemma with memory. Over time, the X-slaves who could process the negative events in their memories turned them to nostalgic look of their youth, and the ones who could not come turn their negative slave experiences into nostalgia are the true stories of slavery.

I could not find that study but I found this one... it not the same but...

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/33354508.pdf

This study suggests that there are patterns that World War II veterans follow in their process of memory construction and the type of narrative they choose to follow in their later recollections. The narratives veterans construct vary in detail based on the unique experiences of each veteran; however, despite these differences the narratives they give to their experience will be similar to one another because of the influence of collective memory and societal cues on memory over time.
The other thing is that the slave narratives were collect in 1936-1938, 7 decades after the end of slavery. It is elderly thinking back about to childhood or early teens at the latest.
 

diane

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I do not think it a good idea to dismiss any source, southern, northern, free, slave etc, and you will notice that most of the sources I use are from Northern, European, or slaves themselves. You will be happy to know I quote Douglass, Booker T Washington, and others in my book.

But it seems the best thing to do is start making the case on each subject as in my book. So next week I will have time to start; as I posted earlier, the slaves' food consumption is where we will begin.
You did not present those authors in your list, which is all I had to judge by. You paint my dismissal of YOUR sources as a dismissal of all 19th century sources and that is a leap I won't let you make. It is a dismissal of sources, primary or not, that have been shown to be erroneous.

The slave narratives are definitely interesting and of great value but one must consider the former masters were still alive and still in control. If a freedman is in New York he might be much more candid than if he was in Mississippi.

Ah! You want to begin with slave food consumption. Let's also include white food consumption and health - as in your average yeoman farmer, not the rich planter. I have some good 19th century sources, such as Ruffin's agricultural studies, about the effect of cotton growing on both the soil and foodstuffs of the South. Cotton is a weed, after all!
 

5fish

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Many preferred the systems, especially in comparison to the decades following emancipation when they rarely received the promised 40 acres and a mule, and their standard of living dropped!!! I explain in my book why they were better off materially in slavery and why they generally enjoyed the benefits of slavery to freedom.
Oh @Bilbobaggins , you have fallen into a clowder with claws out. I ask did you put your book in a context that X-slaves and their descendants lived in from 1865 to 1940? Did you mention the failure of 40 acres and a mule? Did you mention the Southern response by forming militias? Did you mention the Mississippi Plan of the 1870s to deprive Black and Tans of voting? Did you mention SCOTUS gutting the Civil Right laws of the 1870s? Did you mention the rise of Jim Crow throughout the South? Did you mention the 1876 election that lead to the end of soldiers in the Southern states? Did you mention sharecropping? There are more I can point out that were meant to keep X-slaves materially poor for decades following their freedom...
 
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5fish

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Bilbobaggins

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Hi all, I did not forget about you!!! I have been very busy but I will have time on Wednesday to start the discussion on slavery. Thanks for your patience and continued interest.
 

jgoodguy

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Hi all, I did not forget about you!!! I have been very busy but I will have time on Wednesday to start the discussion on slavery. Thanks for your patience and continued interest.
Do you not mean the book that is the OP of this thread. Chattel slavery is a subset of Slavery and has been practiced for 7000 or so years, practiced in what would be the Confederacy for about 400, practiced in the US for about 70 years from the Constitution. So the OP must be limited to the book.
 

Bilbobaggins

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Do you not mean the book that is the OP of this thread. Chattel slavery is a subset of Slavery and has been practiced for 7000 or so years, practiced in what would be the Confederacy for about 400, practiced in the US for about 70 years from the Constitution. So the OP must be limited to the book.
Correct, I meant slavery as discussed in my book. Although, I do get into the history of slavery in a later chapter. But I prefer taking it one section at a time.
 

5fish

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You will be happy to know I quote Douglass, Booker T Washington, and others in my book.
I bet you quoted from his Atlanta speech... called the Atlanta Compromise... I notice you did not mention Du Bois or Hughes...
Many preferred the systems, especially in comparison to the decades following emancipation when they rarely received the promised 40 acres and a mule, and their standard of living dropped!!! I explain in my book why they were better off materially in slavery and why they generally enjoyed the benefits of slavery to freedom.
This paragraph annoys me so much with its falsehoods... I found a great summary of Black Americans' lives from 1890 to 1940.. It starts with a young opportunist black scholar who travels across the South seeing the early signs of Jim Crow and he watches as Jim Crow quickly encompasses the whole South. Do you know what happens after WW1 as Black soldiers return home and are lynched in some cases in their military uniforms there were 26 racial massacres in 1919.


In 1893, William Frank Fonvielle, an African American student at Livingstone College in Salisbury, North Carolina, left on a summer road trip through the South. He was editor of his college newspaper and promised to report back to his classmates on racial progress and oppression. His trip came at a crucial moment. Fonvielle believed that black Americans were on the rise, becoming well educated, exercising the vote, and becoming economically self-sufficient. He wasn’t mistaken in those beliefs, but a tide of white supremacy was rising to meet and wash over those accomplishments.2

In addition to wanting to see firsthand a state that would take away his right to vote, Fonvielle wanted to see something else: the new forms of segregation that were springing up across the South in transportation and public space. He had heard that in some southern states the railway stations had separate black and white waiting rooms, and that sometimes the train stopped at the state line so that the conductors could force all of the black passengers in to a separate car. They called this car the Jim Crow car, naming it for a white minstrel who performed in blackface before the Civil War. Jim Crow first become a nickname for African Americans, and then African Americans appropriated it as shorthand for white oppression, disfranchisement, and segregation.3

The Great Migration resulted in a blossoming of black culture in northern and mid-Western cities, and African Americans began to speak of the “New Negro.” He or she was born after slavery, well-educated, independent, and proud of his or her African background. The New Negro saw World War I as the “Great War for civil rights.” When it ended, Du Bois announced: “We return from fighting. We return fighting. Make Way for Democracy.” African Americans had fought “the savage Hun;” now they returned to fight “the treacherous Cracker.” Across the nation, whites met those demands with violence. Twenty-six full-fledged racial massacres occurred in the summer of 1919.10
 

5fish

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@Bilbobaggins , A look at Black Americans' thoughts early 20th century...

Here is Langston Hughes's in 1926 poem: I, Too


I, Too
BY LANGSTON HUGHES
I, too, sing America.

I am the darker brother.
They send me to eat in the kitchen
When company comes,
But I laugh,
And eat well,
And grow strong.

Tomorrow,
I’ll be at the table
When company comes.
Nobody’ll dare
Say to me,
“Eat in the kitchen,”
Then.

Besides,
They’ll see how beautiful I am
And be ashamed—

I, too, am America.



"I, Too" is a poem written by Langston Hughes that shows a want for equality through patience whilst going against the idea that patriotism is limited by race. It was first published in Hughes' first volume of poetry, The Weary Blues in 1926.

In the 1952 novel, by Ralph Ellison's called: Invisible Man


I am an invisible man. No, I am not a spook like those who haunted Edgar Allan Poe; nor am I one of your Hollywood-movie ectoplasms. I am a man of substance, of flesh and bone, fiber and liquids—and I might even be said to possess a mind. I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me. —Invisible Man


Invisible Man is Ralph Ellison's first novel, published by Random House in 1952. It addresses many of the social and intellectual issues faced by African Americans in the early 20th century, including black nationalism, the relationship between black identity and Marxism, and the reformist racial policies of Booker T. Washington, as well as issues of individuality and personal identity.
 

Bilbobaggins

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Thank you all for your patience. I thought it best to post a section of my intro (I am not giving too much away, this can be read on Amazon "preview," I believe) to my chapter on southern slavery as I do not want it to come off wrong. I have never been one for PC, but I also do not desire to be misrepresented either!!! Besides, I think there will be plenty of content to dispute for knowledgeable, scholarly, perhaps a bit unruly, good Union men such as yourselves.


Neither this first chapter nor this book as a whole are meant in any way to justify slavery in the South. Few could be more for liberty and against any form of slavery than me. As a Christian libertarian-minded individual, slavery in all forms, wage labor, indoctrination, ownership of human property, etc., to me, are all proof of a fallen world. Even defenders of slavery, such as James Hammond of South Carolina, admitted slavery was not desired. He said no one in heaven is a slave, and any perfect paradise one could imagine would not include slavery. Slavery Hammond believed was a result of a fallen world, and only God could abolish it.

What I aim to do in the chapter is to take the lawyer's role of defending the South while searching for a more historically accurate depiction of slavery, in this way we can learn the truth about slavery while still condemning it. What follows will not give an entirely fair account of slavery in the South. It is meant only to tell the side of slavery that is not given to the public. For example, a source I will often use is Born in Slavery: Slave Narratives from the Federal Writers' Project. This collection is made available online by the Library of Congress. It contains thousands of interviews with former slaves and is an excellent first-hand account of slavery from the perspective of slaves themselves. In this collection, and others like it which I will also use from time to time, you will find some of the most horrific accounts of torture, rape, beatings, mistreatment, neglect, and murder involved with the slave system in the South. These evils did occur. But you will not see me quote any of these examples for two reasons.

The first is because the typical understanding of slavery we are given in schools, newspapers, books, magazines, and documentaries already includes these undoubted facts. So there would be no gain from repeating or reinforcing that perception. Secondly, I am here taking the role of a lawyer defending a client, so I seek to only present data that puts my client in a better light. This is not lying or an attempt at being misleading, but it is, in our case, telling more of the truth, the parts that are regularly omitted or overlooked.

We all have learned of the worst evils of slavery in the South; this is not the whole picture, and in some ways is misleading. The Northern Republicans demonized the South and slaveowners to help convince the Northern population they were justified in eradicating the agrarian South. If you want to take others' wealth on a large scale and mold them to your own image, it helps first to degrade those you steal from to justify your actions. This is what the North has accomplished. So I assume we all have had this portrayal of slavery given us. This chapter is meant to provide the rest of the picture to provide a fuller, more historically accurate understanding of the slave system to the reader.

James Kennedy points out that we should also keep in mind that the evils of slavery are common to humanity as a whole. Terrible sins that occurred during slavery can happen whenever one sinful human being has power over another, as the totalitarian governments of the past century displayed. As a Christian, I believe the family unit is a good thing, yet it can also be abused. A father murders a son; a wife kills her husband or child; domestic violence, rape, etc all occur. But that does not make the family unit wrong, only wrong in the way it was used; it misused its intention. It is the same with police; their job and purpose are good, but there will always be abuse in a fallen world with fallen men.

Again, I am not saying that slavery was an ideal institution like the family or should be promoted as families are. What I am saying is that looking at only the worst examples and then claiming the whole system was like that is deceitful. It might help demonize a particular section or people who differ from us, but it will obscure rather than reveal the full truth. The latter is what I hope to do here.

Slavery, as we are commonly expected to imagine it, was not the condition of the majority of slaves in the American South. In her book A Grandmother's Recollections of Dixie, Southerner Mary Bryan said of slavery, "No subject has ever been so misrepresented as has this one." Our modern view of slavery started with the political works of abolitionists before the Civil War and later post W.W.2, when all the survivors of slavery were deceased. While it is true that horrible things happened during slavery, Southern writers would maintain that these were more exception, than rule.

A historical understanding of slavery can show us how loving relationships were formed even in adverse conditions. Black and white share a common history that does not need to cause division today. Nothing is used more in modern politics than slavery to divide and conquer "we the people," to set us up against each other. I hope to unite us rather than further divide us.

Further, we should not forget the North maintained slavery in various states throughout the war, and many Southern slave owners were native to the North or still lived in the North. In 1860, in Social Relations in our Southern States, Southern slaveowner Daniel Hundley blamed the vast majority of the evils committed against slaves on former Yankees who had bought plantations in the South over the past 50 years. These owners did not inherit slaves but got in the "business," caring only for money. In Plantation Life Before Emancipation, southerner R.Q. Mallard wrote, "while there were many honorable exceptions, as a general rule, the Northerners made the severest masters; and the explanation given was that they had not grown up with and formed attachments to the negro." In his Ottawa speech in 1858, Abraham Lincoln seems to agree when he says, "Some Northern [men] go South, and become most cruel slave-masters." Northerner Joseph Ingraham visited the South and agreed when he said of the planters of Mississippi:

"Many of the planters are northerners...they become thorough, driving planters...Their treatment of their slaves is also far more rigid. Northerners are entirely unaccustomed to their habits, which are perfectly understood and appreciated by southerners, who have been familiar with Africans from childhood...Inexperience leads him [the northern planter] to hold the reins of government over his novel subjects with an unsparing severity, which the native ruler of these domestic colonies finds wholly unnecessary. The slave always prefers a southern master, because he knows that he will be understood by him. His kindly feelings toward, and sympathies with slaves, as such, are as honourable to his heart as gratifying to the subjects of them. He treats with suitable allowance those peculiarities of their race, which the unpractised northerner will construe into idleness, obstinacy, laziness, revenge, or hatred. There is another cause for their difference of treatment to their slaves. The southerner, habituated to their presence, never fears them, and laughs at the idea. It is the reverse with the northerner: he fears them, and hopes to intimidate them by severity."
-Joseph Ingraham, The South-West by a Yankee. New -York Harper and Brothers, Cliff-ST Vol 2 1835
 

5fish

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This is not lying or an attempt at being misleading, but it is, in our case, telling more of the truth, the parts that are regularly omitted or overlooked.
Well you seem to forget Ben Franklin's words "Half a truth is often a great lie.". or these words "
The most dangerous of all falsehoods is a slightly distorted truth.
Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

Here is this, they used your same archives and made a slave museum... Read the article and see how many children died on this plantation...


The Federal Writer’s Project (FWP), established by President Franklin Roosevelt as part of his Depression-era Works Progress Administration, is the reason slave narratives like Little’s exist at all, and only because of a historical stroke of luck. Some 6,600 writer and editors were deployed across the country as part of the FWP, including a unit formed in the spring of 1939 to record and preserve the oral histories of America’s last generations of slaves.

But interspersed throughout is something more telling of the slave experience than a last name: testimonials to the brutality doled out by plantation overseers. “They took and gave him 100 lashes with the cat of ninety-nine tails,” wrote Dora Franks of her uncle Alf, whose crime was a romantic rendezvous off the property one night. “His back was somethin awful, but they put him in the field to work while the blood was still runnin’.” Another story ends with a single terrifying phrase: “Dey buried him alive!”

The guide described the excitement curators felt when they first took possession of the Big House and found stacks of well-preserved records of the post-Civil War system, a low-wage cousin of the exploitative sharecropping system, of in which the cost of doing business always mysteriously remained one step ahead of the farmers’ revenues.


The question is: What is the Half Truth... or the Truth...
 
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5fish

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You know, I showed you the problems of human memories over time and of people who faced trauma in their lives. My point is you should take the archives of X-slave voices with a grain of salt. We are talking about 70 to 100 old people telling stories of nostalgia, good and bad ones... Their stories are from imperfect memories...

You want to be a lawyer... so which three are you doing... I say the last one...

“The law was not about truth. It was about negotiation, amelioration, manipulation.”
― Michael Connelly, The Lincoln Lawyer

Southern writers would maintain that these were more exceptions, than rules.
You know: I grew up in the south in the Bible Belt and I never met one fellow white person to admit they ever mistreated a black person. I never met a white person admit they were against the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s, never. I have seen Southern writers from that period never admit they ever mistreated a black person. Why should they?

My point is the South has always had until of late, a Romantic vision of itself just going on a plantation tour and slavery is never mentioned. You will learn how life was wonderful for the Plantation owners. Southern writers tend to be dishonest about the South's past. It is always Romantic and Nostalgic... It is obvious they do not want to think ill of their southern forefathers' dark past...

Think...
 
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