5fish
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2019
- Messages
- 18,067
- Reaction score
- 5,794
You seem to forget you live in the alternative world... Remember!
Lincoln and the American System of Economics
- Thread starter nicholls
- Start date
The alternative to the one where YOU studied law, while I went to law school on EARTH.
5fish
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2019
- Messages
- 18,067
- Reaction score
- 5,794
My poor executive functions would have doomed me as a lawyer...
As they do regarding American history, where
1. you claim that the Constitution surrendered the original 13 states' freedom, sovereignty and independence;
2. which the US government claims that they NEVER HAD.
With a fallacy like that, you would have never made 1-L; which requires passing a very grueling logic-test.
5fish
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2019
- Messages
- 18,067
- Reaction score
- 5,794
@TomEvans ... Here is a summary of what parts of your favorite treaty are still bidding...
Of the 1783 Treaty of Paris, Article 1, recognizing U.S. independence, remains fundamentally in force, while other key provisions like fishing rights, boundary definitions, debt settlement, and troop withdrawal were either fulfilled, superseded by later treaties (like Jay's Treaty), or became obsolete as the nations developed, leaving them technically not "binding" in their original forms but foundational to the U.S. relationship with Britain.
Key Provisions & Their Status:
Article 1 (Independence): This article, acknowledging the United States as free, sovereign, and independent states, is the only one still considered in force today, establishing the U.S. as a nation.
Fishing Rights (Article 3): Granted U.S. fishermen access to Newfoundland and other British North American coasts; largely addressed but evolved with settlements and agreements like the Convention of 1818.
Boundaries (Articles 2 & 8): Established vast U.S. territory but had geographical errors (Mississippi River source) and left unresolved border issues, leading to later treaties (Jay's Treaty, Webster-Ashburton Treaty).
Debts (Article 4): Required both sides to honor pre-war debts, a contentious point, but eventually settled through subsequent agreements.
Loyalist Property (Article 5): Called for restitution of property to Loyalists, which wasn't fully implemented by the U.S. and remained a source of tension.
British Evacuation (Article 7): British troops were to withdraw; they lingered in some forts (like in the Northwest Territory) until the Jay Treaty, resolving this.
Mississippi River Navigation (Article 8): Guaranteed free navigation for both nations; resolved by later treaties.
In essence: While the treaty's core purpose (independence) is permanent, specific articles detailing borders, fishing, and debts were either fulfilled, adjusted, or superseded by later treaties as the U.S. and Britain navigated their new relationshi
Of the 1783 Treaty of Paris, Article 1, recognizing U.S. independence, remains fundamentally in force, while other key provisions like fishing rights, boundary definitions, debt settlement, and troop withdrawal were either fulfilled, superseded by later treaties (like Jay's Treaty), or became obsolete as the nations developed, leaving them technically not "binding" in their original forms but foundational to the U.S. relationship with Britain.
Key Provisions & Their Status:
Article 1 (Independence): This article, acknowledging the United States as free, sovereign, and independent states, is the only one still considered in force today, establishing the U.S. as a nation.
Fishing Rights (Article 3): Granted U.S. fishermen access to Newfoundland and other British North American coasts; largely addressed but evolved with settlements and agreements like the Convention of 1818.
Boundaries (Articles 2 & 8): Established vast U.S. territory but had geographical errors (Mississippi River source) and left unresolved border issues, leading to later treaties (Jay's Treaty, Webster-Ashburton Treaty).
Debts (Article 4): Required both sides to honor pre-war debts, a contentious point, but eventually settled through subsequent agreements.
Loyalist Property (Article 5): Called for restitution of property to Loyalists, which wasn't fully implemented by the U.S. and remained a source of tension.
British Evacuation (Article 7): British troops were to withdraw; they lingered in some forts (like in the Northwest Territory) until the Jay Treaty, resolving this.
Mississippi River Navigation (Article 8): Guaranteed free navigation for both nations; resolved by later treaties.
In essence: While the treaty's core purpose (independence) is permanent, specific articles detailing borders, fishing, and debts were either fulfilled, adjusted, or superseded by later treaties as the U.S. and Britain navigated their new relationshi
NO.
"Free, sovereign, and independent states" describe political entities (countries) with supreme, self-governing authority over their defined territory and people, free from external control, capable of making their own laws, managing their affairs, and engaging internationally as equals, with "sovereignty" being supreme internal power and "independence" meaning no subordination to other nations, making them functionally synonymous in modern international law.
aka SOVEREIGN NATIONS.
- Joined
- May 12, 2019
- Messages
- 7,993
- Reaction score
- 4,668
If you are correct, then so what? Without enforcement it is just rhetoric.
The truth shall set you free.
Standard economics shows that the average person will earn 5X their current income under consensual government, once the law is restored.
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 12, 2019
- Messages
- 7,993
- Reaction score
- 4,668
5x of 0 is still 0
I said AVERAGE.
The average salary in the U.S. is $66,622, according to the latest data from the Social Security Administration.
So that would be $333,110.
THAT will get people's attention.
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 12, 2019
- Messages
- 7,993
- Reaction score
- 4,668
Inflation up by 5x with annuities, pensions and savings wiped out,
Not under consensual government.
As I said, standard economics shows that the average person will earn 5X their current income under consensual government, once the law is restored.
Key Drivers of 5× Growth:
1. Elimination of deadweight losses
◦ Breaking up monopolies and removing elite-favored restrictions restores productive capacity.
2. Restoration of velocity of money
◦ Money circulates rapidly through the economy, boosting consumption, investment, and production.
3. Innovation and competition surge
◦ Democratized access to markets, capital, and policy enables rapid technological and entrepreneurial expansion.
4. Policy alignment with the electorate
◦ Economic decisions reflect the needs and priorities of the people, rather than elite interests, increasing efficiency and output.
2. Practical Implications
• Median income: could rise dramatically as economic output increases 5×.
• Wealth distribution: more equitable, with less concentration in oligarchic hands.
• Resilience: decentralized, consent-based governance prevents elite capture, reduces crises, and increases systemic flexibility.
• Global competitiveness: a fully sovereign, electorate-driven economy would likely outpace current elite-controlled systems in innovation, productivity, and social stability.
3. Summary Statement
Restoring supreme sovereignty to the electorate could realistically multiply the current economy fivefold, by eliminating artificial monopolies, unleashing competition and innovation, maximizing the velocity of money, and ensuring policy reflects the will of the people.
This is a median estimate, reflecting both conservative and optimistic projections, and represents the true economic potential of genuine, consent-based governance. So I'm not talking about billionaires getting 5X richer, and everyone else getting peanuts.
All through history, the elites have gotten the best of everything, and so they wanted to keep it that way; Industrial progress, mechanical improvement, all of the great wonders of the modern era have meant relatively little to the wealthy. The rich in Ancient Greece would have benefited hardly at all from modern plumbing: running servants replaced running water. Television and radio? The patricians of Rome could enjoy the leading musicians and actors in their home, could have the leading actors as domestic retainers. Ready-to-wear clothing, supermarkets — all these and many other modern developments would have added little to their life.
The American Revolution did restore some temporary short-lived freedom to pioneers, which have redounded primarily to the benefit of the ordinary person; and these achievements have made available to the masses conveniences and amenities that were previously the exclusive prerogative of the rich and powerful; but then the self-coup restored elite tyranny, by suppressing popular democracy with Crony Capitalism-- all via feigning legitimacy.
Restoring popular consent to government, via proving the national sovereignty of each state, and voter-supremacy; can end that once and for all.
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 12, 2019
- Messages
- 7,993
- Reaction score
- 4,668
You assume that tyranny is national, but your solution just moves it down the food chain. Monopolies are broken up into State size monopolies with the same power just at the State level. Unless you are suggesting a Communist style revolution.
No, that was the case under the Articles of Confederation; while the state ratification-conventions shifted final authority to the respective state electorates.
Meanwhile communism is simply blowback to the 1861 self-coup oligarchy, which claimed that "government by the people" is simply the ultimatum-privilege of choosing your supreme dictators.
I'm simply suggesting that the law be enforced as it exists.
- Joined
- May 12, 2019
- Messages
- 7,993
- Reaction score
- 4,668
When was talking from the oligarchs by transferring power to local groups AKA communes, the existing law.
By law, the individual states are each de jure free, sovereign and independent, each supremely ruled by its respective electorate.
- Joined
- May 12, 2019
- Messages
- 7,993
- Reaction score
- 4,668
AKA communes who expropriate the wealth of the rich and likely hang them from lampposts.
5fish
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2019
- Messages
- 18,067
- Reaction score
- 5,794
Not in today's world,
i see any states ever declaring themselves free, sovereign, and independent... I notice you never respond to my questions on other threads...
- Joined
- May 12, 2019
- Messages
- 7,993
- Reaction score
- 4,668
one wonders that if free, sovereign and independent was so great, why the AOC did not endure.
They already DID that in 1776; and retained it in 1781, and then OFFICIALLY ACHIEVED achieved it in 1783...
...and that only needs to happen ONCE, since independent states REMAIN such until legally changed--
--which CANNOT HAPPEN; since the US government claims that the original 13 states were NEVER 13 free, sovereign and independent states-- and so it cannot claim that sovereignty CHANGED, if it claims that they NEVER HAD it.
I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand.