Lee's Army Becomes Slave Hunters

Jim Klag

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The real reason free blacks were kidnapped is that with the high death rate of Southern young men their sisters were now lonely and cranky. The poor Confederate soldiers needed someone to get their sisters out of the house and be happy.
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Matt McKeon

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The free black selling into slavery never happened.
The Blacks in Pennsylvania and Maryland were free, and then they were enslaved by the ANV. That happened. You're trying to clutch at the straws of: "they weren't free antebellum." But the EP had freed them. Everyone. Until the advance of Confederate forces. And were the Confederates that picky about the status of the Blacks they were rounding up? Did the type of person who would enslave someone be a stickler for paperwork? Since slave traders had done a lively business prewar kidnapping free blacks for sale in the slave states, I going to say, slave traders aren't big ones for crossing the t's and dotting the i's, and checking the background of all that lovely profitable black flesh.
 

Jim Klag

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The real reason free blacks were kidnapped is that with the high death rate of Southern young men their sisters were now lonely and cranky. The poor Confederate soldiers needed someone to get their sisters out of the house and be happy.
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jgoodguy

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The Blacks in Pennsylvania and Maryland were free, and then they were enslaved by the ANV. That happened. You're trying to clutch at the straws of: "they weren't free antebellum." But the EP had freed them. Everyone. Until the advance of Confederate forces. And were the Confederates that picky about the status of the Blacks they were rounding up? Did the type of person who would enslave someone be a stickler for paperwork? Since slave traders had done a lively business prewar kidnapping free blacks for sale in the slave states, I going to say, slave traders aren't big ones for crossing the t's and dotting the i's, and checking the background of all that lovely profitable black flesh.
There is no evidence, absolutely no evidence that Free Pensylbania blacks were enslaved by the ANV. I have yet to see any, but I see a lot of ignorance on the procedures used by the ANV. All Blacks, some white civilians, and union POWs were considered prisoners of war. Some were released before shipped South. The procedure according to CSA Law was that blacks would be asked if they were slaves, if they admitted to being slaves they would be sent to depots awaiting claiming by owners. Pows would be sent to Pow camps. Normally free blacks would be catch and release. However the Pennsylvania free blacks were imprisoned for the duration. Some were exchanged and most just disappeared from the record.

If you got flipping evidence otherwise please present it.
 

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There is no evidence, absolutely no evidence that Free Pensylbania blacks were enslaved by the ANV. I have yet to see any, but I see a lot of ignorance on the procedures used by the ANV. All Blacks, some white civilians, and union POWs were considered prisoners of war. Some were released before shipped South. The procedure according to CSA Law was that blacks would be asked if they were slaves, if they admitted to being slaves they would be sent to depots awaiting claiming by owners. Pows would be sent to Pow camps. Normally free blacks would be catch and release. However the Pennsylvania free blacks were imprisoned for the duration. Some were exchanged and most just disappeared from the record.

If you got flipping evidence otherwise please present it.
Not sure about trusting the veracity of Confederate soldiers to determine the legal status of people of color.
Also not trusting poorly paid Confederate soldiers not to make a few bucks on the side selling people for real not Confederate monopoly money.
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jgoodguy

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Not sure about trusting the veracity of Confederate soldiers to determine the legal status of people of color.
Also not trusting poorly paid Confederate soldiers not to make a few bucks on the side selling people for real not Confederate monopoly money.
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I am not sure about your understanding of the military chain of command. The orders were to collect blacks like forage and sent them to ANV headquarters. Unlike say a pillaged wedding dress, extra blacks will be noticed around camp, consuming rations, requiring soldiers to guard them and arousing jealously of soldiers not having a spare black as booty. That is not to say individual soldiers thought of it, but their NCOs and officers quickly disabused them of the notion.
 

Jim Klag

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There is no evidence, absolutely no evidence that Free Pensylbania blacks were enslaved by the ANV. I have yet to see any, but I see a lot of ignorance on the procedures used by the ANV. All Blacks, some white civilians, and union POWs were considered prisoners of war. Some were released before shipped South. The procedure according to CSA Law was that blacks would be asked if they were slaves, if they admitted to being slaves they would be sent to depots awaiting claiming by owners. Pows would be sent to Pow camps. Normally free blacks would be catch and release. However the Pennsylvania free blacks were imprisoned for the duration. Some were exchanged and most just disappeared from the record.

If you got flipping evidence otherwise please present it.
As I said earlier, what would be the purpose of the legislation if not to return these rounded up black folks to slavery. I am not able to suspend disbelief enough to think that these folks were either released outright or made prisoners. Let's see - a law to roundup black people so, instead of making money from them, we can use up our minuscule resources feeding and housing them in prisons. Or, say we're sorry there's been a mistake and you can go home. I would have to see absolute incontrovertible evidence that free blacks rounded up in this way were not sold or at least returned to slavery. Otherwise, I cannot believe it. What else could possibly be the point of the roundup law?
 

Kirk's Raider's

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I am not sure about your understanding of the military chain of command. The orders were to collect blacks like forage and sent them to ANV headquarters. Unlike say a pillaged wedding dress, extra blacks will be noticed around camp, consuming rations, requiring soldiers to guard them and arousing jealously of soldiers not having a spare black as booty. That is not to say individual soldiers thought of it, but their NCOs and officers quickly disabused them of the notion.
To trust white Southeners to determine the status of African Americans to determine if they were freed or not when they can be sold for profit is a bit much. We have first hand accounts from @Pat Young on the AnV forciably kidnapping black people.
The AnV had no problems taking as many kidnapped people with them logistics be damed.
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jgoodguy

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As I said earlier, what would be the purpose of the legislation if not to return these rounded up black folks to slavery. I am not able to suspend disbelief enough to think that these folks were either released outright or made prisoners. Let's see - a law to roundup black people so, instead of making money from them, we can use up our minuscule resources feeding and housing them in prisons. Or, say we're sorry there's been a mistake and you can go home. I would have to see absolute incontrovertible evidence that free blacks rounded up in this way were not sold or at least returned to slavery. Otherwise, I cannot believe it. What else could possibly be the point of the roundup law?
The purpose of the legislation was to enforce the CSA fugitive slave laws just like the US fugitive slave laws were enforced until the 13th amendment was ratified. The rest is mere speculation.
 

jgoodguy

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To trust white Southeners to determine the status of African Americans to determine if they were freed or not when they can be sold for profit is a bit much. We have first hand accounts from @Pat Young on the AnV forciably kidnapping black people.
The AnV had no problems taking as many kidnapped people with them logistics be damed.
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Mere speculation.
 

Jim Klag

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The purpose of the legislation was to enforce the CSA fugitive slave laws just like the US fugitive slave laws were enforced until the 13th amendment was ratified. The rest is mere speculation.
It is not speculation, it is common sense. What were the fugitive slave laws? Measures to capture blacks and return them to slavery and the only requirement was the say-so of the alleged owner. A law to enforce these fugitive laws can only have the purpose of making slaves out of captured black folks. That is not speculation - it is simple fact.
 

Jim Klag

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The purpose of the legislation was to enforce the CSA fugitive slave laws just like the US fugitive slave laws were enforced until the 13th amendment was ratified. The rest is mere speculation.
If you want to know the truth, the real purpose of the roundup law was probably simple retaliation for the Emancipation Proclamation. You dare to free our slaves you rat and we'll come north and round up as many black folks as we can and put 'em back on the cotton plantations. Now that is in character for some of the hot-blooded southern gentlemen like Davis and Seddon.
 

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Egad... I'm going to have to run a squeegee over my brain now! Cranky sisters...?

That wasn't a motive, think we can all agree there! Money was. Just before the war, Forrest was able to sell a prime field hand for 2500 in Mississippi, after buying him for 250 in Virginia. After the war started, the price doubled - huge money in slaves, lots of speculators working overtime. During the war, John Hunt Morgan's men sold at least one fellow for 5000 - which certainly helped the collective wallet. As Forrest's little adventure with the marshal shows, a person's status wasn't always checked on and that was before Sherman burned down the courthouse with your freedom papers in it. So, an enterprising soldier could kidnap a free black and sell them without questions being asked and, since the courts were in disarray, it would be a while for the individual to make his/her case. A lady diarist in Gettysburg said most of the black people fled, and those who had to stay behind for one reason or another suddenly became cripples. There was just an epidemic among them...unmarket-ability!
 

jgoodguy

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It is not speculation, it is common sense. What were the fugitive slave laws? Measures to capture blacks and return them to slavery and the only requirement was the say-so of the alleged owner. A law to enforce these fugitive laws can only have the purpose of making slaves out of captured black folks. That is not speculation - it is simple fact.
That is not the issue.
 

jgoodguy

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Right because Southern whites particularly those who supported the Confederacy were such sticklers for equal rights for African Americans.
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Kirk's Raider's

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Egad... I'm going to have to run a squeegee over my brain now! Cranky sisters...?

That wasn't a motive, think we can all agree there! Money was. Just before the war, Forrest was able to sell a prime field hand for 2500 in Mississippi, after buying him for 250 in Virginia. After the war started, the price doubled - huge money in slaves, lots of speculators working overtime. During the war, John Hunt Morgan's men sold at least one fellow for 5000 - which certainly helped the collective wallet. As Forrest's little adventure with the marshal shows, a person's status wasn't always checked on and that was before Sherman burned down the courthouse with your freedom papers in it. So, an enterprising soldier could kidnap a free black and sell them without questions being asked and, since the courts were in disarray, it would be a while for the individual to make his/her case. A lady diarist in Gettysburg said most of the black people fled, and those who had to stay behind for one reason or another suddenly became cripples. There was just an epidemic among them...unmarket-ability!
Nothing wrong with a little humor. In fact Southern men were very upset with the mere thought of their sisters lusting after guys who were not monochromatic.
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jgoodguy

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Egad... I'm going to have to run a squeegee over my brain now! Cranky sisters...?

That wasn't a motive, think we can all agree there! Money was. Just before the war, Forrest was able to sell a prime field hand for 2500 in Mississippi, after buying him for 250 in Virginia. After the war started, the price doubled - huge money in slaves, lots of speculators working overtime. During the war, John Hunt Morgan's men sold at least one fellow for 5000 - which certainly helped the collective wallet. As Forrest's little adventure with the marshal shows, a person's status wasn't always checked on and that was before Sherman burned down the courthouse with your freedom papers in it. So, an enterprising soldier could kidnap a free black and sell them without questions being asked and, since the courts were in disarray, it would be a while for the individual to make his/her case. A lady diarist in Gettysburg said most of the black people fled, and those who had to stay behind for one reason or another suddenly became cripples. There was just an epidemic among them...unmarket-ability!
Possible, but in the case of the ANV in Pennsylvania, there were orders to send blacks to ANV HQ, and keeping a slave in camp is going to be difficult. They have to be fed and guarded.
 
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