John Brown.

alexjack

zhe welsh wizard
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
184
Reaction score
193
Why was he hanged for leading an armed insurrection while the leaders of the Confederacy were not?
 

Jim Klag

Ike the moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
3,690
Reaction score
2,296
alexjack said:
Why was he hanged for leading an armed insurrection while the leaders of the Confederacy were not?
He was tried and hanged by the state of Virginia. The Confederate traitors were not tried or hanged because Lincoln had ordered his subordinates to "let 'em up easy." Once the war was over and the enemy surrendered, Lincoln's policy was for reconciliation, not punishment. The point was made, the issue settled and trying and punishing the leaders was unnecessary and, Lincoln believed, counterproductive.
 

alexjack

zhe welsh wizard
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
184
Reaction score
193
The state of Virginia? Wasn't Brown's crime a Federal one then?
 

Jim Klag

Ike the moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
3,690
Reaction score
2,296
alexjack said:
The state of Virginia? Wasn't Brown's crime a Federal one then?
It would have been, but Virginia got to him first. That's still the case over here. The jurisdiction where the crime is committed has first crack at the criminal. States only cede jurisdiction to the Feds if the Feds have a better shot at a conviction or can get a stiffer penalty than is available in the states.
 

Kirk's Raider's

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 16, 2019
Messages
2,251
Reaction score
922
Actually Lincoln had nothing to do with Davis not being tried for treason. Definitely see pages 601 and 602
"Jefferson Davis American' William Cooper Vintage Civil War Library.
P.601
President Johnson was inundated with Southerners asking for clemency vs Northeners seeking vengeance. The US Congress in the Spring of 1866 demanded to know why Davis wasn't tried and had to wait four months for a reply.
"US Attorney General James Speed along with specially appointed counsel decided that the case would have to be tried in Virginia ,where Davis actually commanded a war against the United States." Both Speed and private counsel were if the opinion that Davis could not be tried out of Virginia due to constitutional issue's.
Speed made a very reasonable calculation that a jury in Richmond would convict Davis and in fact declare the ACW illegal. Also see P.602 and 603 the presiding federal judge in Virginia : Judge Underwood would not try Davis by himself. The case would be tried by the local Federal District Court which would be Judge Underwood and the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court Justice Salomon P. Chase. Chief Justice Chase in a letter to President Johnson in October of 1865 stated that it would not be right for any Supreme Court justice to try a case in an area under martial law.
Kirk's Raider's
 

jgoodguy

Webmaster
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
7,116
Reaction score
4,148
Kirk\ said:
Actually Lincoln had nothing to do with Davis not being tried for treason. Definitely see pages 601 and 602
"Jefferson Davis American' William Cooper Vintage Civil War Library.
P.601
President Johnson was inundated with Southerners asking for clemency vs Northeners seeking vengeance. The US Congress in the Spring of 1866 demanded to know why Davis wasn't tried and had to wait four months for a reply.
"US Attorney General James Speed along with specially appointed counsel decided that the case would have to be tried in Virginia ,where Davis actually commanded a war against the United States." Both Speed and private counsel were if the opinion that Davis could not be tried out of Virginia due to constitutional issue's.
Speed made a very reasonable calculation that a jury in Richmond would convict Davis and in fact declare the ACW illegal. Also see P.602 and 603 the presiding federal judge in Virginia : Judge Underwood would not try Davis by himself. The case would be tried by the local Federal District Court which would be Judge Underwood and the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court Justice Salomon P. Chase. Chief Justice Chase in a letter to President Johnson in October of 1865 stated that it would not be right for any Supreme Court justice to try a case in an area under martial law.
Kirk's Raider's
A bit later the 14th amendment passed and its Section 3 imposed punishment for traitors.  Chase held that putting Davis on trial would be double jeopardy.  Soon after Johnson pardoned everyone.  So passed the opportunity.
 

jgoodguy

Webmaster
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
7,116
Reaction score
4,148
alexjack said:
The state of Virginia? Wasn't Brown's crime a Federal one then?
Brown et.al were tried for treason against the State of Virginia.  The feds realizing that a trial would be one big can of political worms, deferred to VA.
 

alexjack

zhe welsh wizard
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
184
Reaction score
193
So it was possible to commit treason against an individual State? I'm surprised that a 'State' was allowed laws that sanctioned that.
 

jgoodguy

Webmaster
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
7,116
Reaction score
4,148
alexjack said:
So it was possible to commit treason against an individual State? I'm surprised that a 'State' was allowed laws that sanctioned that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_laws_in_the_United_States


In the United States, there are both federal and state laws prohibiting treason.[1] It was defined in Article III, Section 3 of the United States Constitution. Most state constitutions include similar definitions of treason, specifically limited to levying war against the state, "adhering to the enemies" of the state, or aiding the enemies of the state, and requiring two witnesses or a confession in open court.[2] Fewer than thirty people have ever been charged with treason under these laws.[3]

Constitutionally, citizens of the United States owe allegiance to at least two sovereigns. One is the United States, and the other is their state. They can therefore potentially commit treason against either, or against both.[4] At least fourteen people have been charged with treason against various states; at least six were convicted, five of whom were executed. Only one person has ever been executed for treason against the federal government: William Bruce Mumford, who was convicted of treason and hanged in 1862 for tearing down a United States flag during the American Civil War.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_laws_in_the_United_States#cite_note-5
 

alexjack

zhe welsh wizard
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
184
Reaction score
193
'Constitutionally, citizens of the United States owe allegiance to at least two sovereigns. One is the United States, and the other is their state. They can therefore potentially commit treason against either, or against both.'
So you could say Robert E Lee found himself between a rock and a hard place. Loyalty to one was treachery to the other no matter which way he went.
 

Nitti

charon's apprentice
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
282
Reaction score
263
Thats why he resigned from thhe U.S.Army and went with ol virginny.
 

Carmel

Member
Joined
May 31, 2019
Messages
37
Reaction score
55
I do find it ironic that of everyone involved a John Brown was not only hanged, but has suffered from a poor reputation ever since. Was he really just a madman? Some of his contemporaries didn’t think he was (Frederick Douglass, for instance.) I wonder whether he is still viewed by the Lost Cause perspective.
 

Kirk's Raider's

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 16, 2019
Messages
2,251
Reaction score
922
I do find it ironic that of everyone involved a John Brown was not only hanged, but has suffered from a poor reputation ever since. Was he really just a madman? Some of his contemporaries didn’t think he was (Frederick Douglass, for instance.) I wonder whether he is still viewed by the Lost Cause perspective.
John Brown is definitely viewed negatively by the Lost Cause crowd. A white man is willing to fight and die to protect black people from slavery. A scary notion then and now.
Kirk's Raider's
 

Kirk's Raider's

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 16, 2019
Messages
2,251
Reaction score
922
'Constitutionally, citizens of the United States owe allegiance to at least two sovereigns. One is the United States, and the other is their state. They can therefore potentially commit treason against either, or against both.'
So you could say Robert E Lee found himself between a rock and a hard place. Loyalty to one was treachery to the other no matter which way he went.
Not sure how one can be disloyal to a state because they won't fight for slavery. No one fought against a state in the ACW. One either was neutral, or fought on behalf of the Confederacy or the Union.
Over 20k Virginians fought in the Union Army per " Lincoln's Loyalists Union Soldiers from the Confederacy" Richard Current North East University Press.
Among the most famous Virginians to fight for the Union is Major General George Thomas and Admiral Fargutt. (sp?) How did they betray Virginia? Also how could former slaves who joined the USCT betray Virginia?
Kirk's Raider's
 

alexjack

zhe welsh wizard
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
184
Reaction score
193
If the legislature of a state decided that the state would follow a course of political/civil/military action and a citizen of that state acted against it, doesn't US law say that that citizen is a traitor to that state?
 

jgoodguy

Webmaster
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
7,116
Reaction score
4,148
If the legislature of a state decided that the state would follow a course of political/civil/military action and a citizen of that state acted against it, doesn't US law say that that citizen is a traitor to that state?
A lot of State Constitutions have traitor provisions.
 

Kirk's Raider's

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 16, 2019
Messages
2,251
Reaction score
922
If the legislature of a state decided that the state would follow a course of political/civil/military action and a citizen of that state acted against it, doesn't US law say that that citizen is a traitor to that state?
Not aware of any federal statutory or case law on that issue.
Kirk's Raider's
 

alexjack

zhe welsh wizard
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
184
Reaction score
193
In the United States, there are both federal and state laws prohibiting treason.[1] It was defined in Article III, Section 3 of the United States Constitution. Most state constitutions include similar definitions of treason, specifically limited to levying war against the state, "adhering to the enemies" of the state, or aiding the enemies of the state, and requiring two witnesses or a confession in open court.[2] Fewer than thirty people have ever been charged with treason under these laws.[3]
Constitutionally, citizens of the United States owe allegiance to at least two sovereigns. One is the United States, and the other is their state.
Wiki
I was reading off this James.
 

5fish

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
10,619
Reaction score
4,544
Map of John Brown's assault... https://www.vox.com/2015/4/14/8396477/maps-explain-civil-war

6) Anti-slavery radical John Brown launches a futile attack on a federal armory
Anand Katakam/Vox
Abolitionist radical John Brown, a veteran of the violence in Kansas, developed a plan to attack a federal armory in Harper’s Ferry, Virginia, in 1859. Brown’s goal was to arm slaves on nearby plantations and encourage them to fan out across the countryside, freeing and arming more slaves. This plan was a total failure. Few nearby slaves knew the raid was going on, and none of them were willing to risk their lives by taking up arms against their masters. When Brown let a passing train go through, it raised the alarm. Soon, Brown was surrounded by local militia and federal troops. After his capture, Brown relished his role as a martyr, giving an eloquent anti-slavery speech after being convicted of treason and murder. Some abolitionists came to see Brown as a hero. But Southern partisans, of course, were outraged by Brown’s actions, adding to the tension between North and South.
 
Top