How the Good war went bad

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Foreign Affairs Journal has a very insightful article on how America lost it's 28 year war in Afghanistan America's longest war. I found a link in today's Real Clear Politics.
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jgoodguy

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I just went to Real Clear Politics Sunday February 23rd and scrolled down.
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IMHO forever wars breed breakdown in national will and leadership. Bombing the hell out of things is a lot easier than the messy job of taking care of citizens. Aircraft carriers sexier than roads, drones better than schools and so on.
 

5fish

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Here are some links of defeat...

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/12/16/everyone-knows-america-lost-afghanistan-long-ago/

Last week, the Washington Post published a massive set of documents on the protracted and still unsuccessful U.S. war in Afghanistan, a conflict that Samuel Moyn and Stephen Wertheim have aptly dubbed the “infinity war.”

While not quite as revelatory as the Vietnam-era Pentagon Papers, the release of these documents is still an important contribution to public understanding of U.S. national-security policy. In more normal times—without a looming impeachment, an endless parade of Trumpian distractions, and a congenitally irresponsible Republican Party—discovering that U.S. officials had obscured their doubts about the war and their recognition that U.S. strategy was failing might even prompt change of course.


Can we walk away...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/08/us-afghanistan-civil-war-fundamentalist

The approaching US withdrawal from Afghanistan is not an honourable retreat – it’s a capitulation. The best the Americans can hope for in exit talks with the Taliban, due to resume in Doha later this month, is a promise that coalition troops, unlike the British army led by General Elphinstone in 1842, will not depart under fire. After more than 17 years of conflict, with at least 38,000 civilians killed and millions more injured, traumatised or exiled, none of the long-term objectives set out by George W Bush following the 2001 invasion has been met. In short, the US has lost the war, and lost badly.
 

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IMHO forever wars breed breakdown in national will and leadership. Bombing the hell out of things is a lot easier than the messy job of taking care of citizens. Aircraft carriers sexier than roads, drones better than schools and so on.
True enough that's why the Spanish American War was the most popular war it was short and sweet. The Philippines Insurection that followed not so much. The first Iraq War was barrel ful of fun the second was at first but it went South ( pun intended) as the war dragged non. The tragedy is Americans are to stupid tomlesrn from their mistakes.
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Kirk's Raider's

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Here are some links of defeat...

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/12/16/everyone-knows-america-lost-afghanistan-long-ago/

Last week, the Washington Post published a massive set of documents on the protracted and still unsuccessful U.S. war in Afghanistan, a conflict that Samuel Moyn and Stephen Wertheim have aptly dubbed the “infinity war.”

While not quite as revelatory as the Vietnam-era Pentagon Papers, the release of these documents is still an important contribution to public understanding of U.S. national-security policy. In more normal times—without a looming impeachment, an endless parade of Trumpian distractions, and a congenitally irresponsible Republican Party—discovering that U.S. officials had obscured their doubts about the war and their recognition that U.S. strategy was failing might even prompt change of course.


Can we walk away...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/08/us-afghanistan-civil-war-fundamentalist

The approaching US withdrawal from Afghanistan is not an honourable retreat – it’s a capitulation. The best the Americans can hope for in exit talks with the Taliban, due to resume in Doha later this month, is a promise that coalition troops, unlike the British army led by General Elphinstone in 1842, will not depart under fire. After more than 17 years of conflict, with at least 38,000 civilians killed and millions more injured, traumatised or exiled, none of the long-term objectives set out by George W Bush following the 2001 invasion has been met. In short, the US has lost the war, and lost badly.
The best the US can hope for after blowing one trillion or do dollars is that the Taliban won't harbor terrorists.
On the other hand there are parts of the world where terrorists can easily hide as certain areas fall into anarchy.
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5fish

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I like to remind you :

Empires go to Afghanistan time die...

China you are up next...
 

5fish

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terrorists can easily
I can not back up the following: a long while ago I was C-SPAN and a terrorist expect mention that international terrorist learned their lesson from 9/11. Do not attack Americans on their home soil?

They saw us take out two state governments and decapitated a few terrorist organizations.

The terrorist now have mass killing in proxy states....

Here a link that kind of gets the idea along...

https://www.newamerica.org/in-depth/terrorism-in-america/what-threat-united-states-today/
 

jgoodguy

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True enough that's why the Spanish American War was the most popular war it was short and sweet. The Philippines Insurection that followed not so much. The first Iraq War was barrel ful of fun the second was at first but it went South ( pun intended) as the war dragged non. The tragedy is Americans are to stupid tomlesrn from their mistakes.
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War is a distraction from political problems. Great nations almost all fall from the same thing. War costs eventually overwhelm them.

It is not unique to the US>
 

Kirk's Raider's

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I like to remind you :

Empires go to Afghanistan time die...

China you are up next...
That assumed that the Chinese are as stupid as the US. Why would China even want to militarily engage in Afghanistan. Yes there are Chinese mining companies in Afghanistan but it doesn't require the Chinese Army to protect their interests. A Taliban ruled Afghanistan would welcome Chinese investment .
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I can not back up the following: a long while ago I was C-SPAN and a terrorist expect mention that international terrorist learned their lesson from 9/11. Do not attack Americans on their home soil?

They saw us take out two state governments and decapitated a few terrorist organizations.

The terrorist now have mass killing in proxy states....

Here a link that kind of gets the idea along...

https://www.newamerica.org/in-depth/terrorism-in-america/what-threat-united-states-today/
Yes the US took out Sadamm Hussein but Hussein had nothing to do with Islamic terrorists.
In fact by dismantling the Bathist regime in Iraq the US paved the way for the creation of ISIS.
Terrorist conflicts end when there is a negotiated settlement or if the group is really small it can be neutralized particularly if the terrorists are granted amnesty.
The Baider-Meinhoff gang in then West Germany was eventually neutralized along with such groups as the Japanese Red Army ,the American Sypenieze(so?) Liberation Army ,the Black Liberation Army and the Italian Ted Brigades. But all of the above groups were very small and didn't have a popular base of support.
In contrast groups such has the IRA despite years of British government spending and manpower had to be dealt with by a negotiated settlement.
If Al Quedea and or ISIS can maintain a certain amount of popular support they they will always be a threat.
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Kirk's Raider's

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As of today the US threw in the towel as long as the Taliban don't give sanctuary to groups the US considers hostile. We will see what happens but once again does that support the US need to realize they are expendable and US promises mean very little.
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Viper21

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As of today the US threw in the towel as long as the Taliban don't give sanctuary to groups the US considers hostile. We will see what happens but once again does that support the US need to realize they are expendable and US promises mean very little.
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I figured it wouldn't take long to put a negative spin on it.

Most libs were up W's ass about Afghanistan & Iraq. Same libs were amazingly silent while Obama was in charge then, ... we see the anti-war sentiment from the left flare up again. NOW, as our President achieves a peace deal in Afghanistan, he'll be criticized for that too.

Further proof, he can do nothing right, in the minds of libs. I've listened to several on this very forum complain about the money spent there. Yet, I'm waiting for the praise of the President for agreeing to pull us out of there (another campaign promised soon to be fulfilled).
 

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I figured it wouldn't take long to put a negative spin on it.

Most libs were up W's ass about Afghanistan & Iraq. Same libs were amazingly silent while Obama was in charge then, ... we see the anti-war sentiment from the left flare up again. NOW, as our President achieves a peace deal in Afghanistan, he'll be criticized for that too.

Further proof, he can do nothing right, in the minds of libs. I've listened to several on this very forum complain about the money spent there. Yet, I'm waiting for the praise of the President for agreeing to pull us out of there (another campaign promised soon to be fulfilled).
The kind were dam right to be up W's dumbass for invading Afghanistan and Iraq has both wars were major debacles resulting in the useless loss of American and allied lives and treasure.
Obama was hoping for a better outcome in Afghanistan but he didn't start the war he inherited it.
There was no Republicans other then Ron Paul pushing for withdrawal from Afghanistan. If we critize Obama for not withdrawing from Afghanistan then we should also critize Trump for not pulling out earlier.
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Viper21

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The kind were dam right to be up W's dumbass for invading Afghanistan and Iraq has both wars were major debacles resulting in the useless loss of American and allied lives and treasure.
Obama was hoping for a better outcome in Afghanistan but he didn't start the war he inherited it.
Your comment reads as, carrying water for Obama. He was President for 8 yrs. If he wanted out of Afghanistan, he could've made it happen, period.

Interesting you mention the US lives lost. As a fellow Military Dad, I understand. As I type this post, I have a son in Afghanistan. Although, my point is... more US service members lost their lives in Afghanistan, with Obama as their CIC, than W & Trump combined. By a long shot. It's not even close.

There was no Republicans other then Ron Paul pushing for withdrawal from Afghanistan. If we critize Obama for not withdrawing from Afghanistan then we should also critize Trump for not pulling out earlier.
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Trump just got a peace deal negotiated, & is going to withdraw.
 

5fish

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The kind were dam right to be up W's dumbass for invading Afghanistan and Iraq has both wars were major debacles resulting in the useless loss of American and allied lives and treasure.
Yes, both military forays were in the long term major debacles. It's obvious we and the world did not have the heart to win the war but the some rural mountain people had the heart to win. You should ask , why the Afghans could not put an army in the field in 18 years with the will to right.. It reminds me of South Vietnam for they could not put an army in the field with the will to fight.

We need to ask in 18 years, we could not win the Afghan people over to our side. There was something wrong with our message to them.

We need to go... If the Afghan did not want the Taliban, they would have turned on them but they never did.

We could have just paid each Afghan a few thousand a year and I bet there would have been no fighting. It would have been cheaper.

Trump just got a peace deal negotiated, & is going to withdraw.
You know this is one time I am with Trump...
 

Kirk's Raider's

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Yes, both military forays were in the long term major debacles. It's obvious we and the world did not have the heart to win the war but the some rural mountain people had the heart to win. You should ask , why the Afghans could not put an army in the field in 18 years with the will to right.. It reminds me of South Vietnam for they could not put an army in the field with the will to fight.

We need to ask in 18 years, we could not win the Afghan people over to our side. There was something wrong with our message to them.

We need to go... If the Afghan did not want the Taliban, they would have turned on them but they never did.

We could have just paid each Afghan a few thousand a year and I bet there would have been no fighting. It would have been cheaper.



You know this is one time I am with Trump...
That's a good question as the Soviets even after several decades could not create a competent Afghsn army.
Some ARVIN units fought very well such has the Marines and Paratroopers. During the Tet Offensive many ARVIN divisions fought well on the defensive.
Paying the Afgahns and VC may or may not of worked but it would of cost less money.
One major problem for the ARVIN was drafting a majority Budist army led by Roman Catholic Officers who didn't always treat their men properly.
The corruption level of both the ARVIN and ANA is high .
Afgahns tend to have a higher tribal, ethnic or religious identity I.e.Shia vs Sunni then a national identity.
Vietnam had major religious schism's Roman Cato vs Budist vs ethnic Vietnamese vs Proto Maylay and Khmer.
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