Hadrian Wall or Maginot Line...

[5fish]

One can argue the many mistakes the Confederacy made during the civil war. I argue the three-big strategic mistakes were their King Cotton foreign policy, Davis insistence on trying to keep border integrity, and Lee's insistence desire to crush the Union army with his much smaller force... I will say King Cotton foreign policy may have worked if they had promise nations cheap cotton for recognition and support, instead of a cotton embargo...

The point of this What if is to address Davis and Lee failed visions. The Confederacy strategy should have been to drag the war out and allow war weariness in the North to win the war. The Confederacy should have looked back to history and follow the Chinse and Romans strategy of walls and fortification along the borders. I say the Confederacy should have used trenches and fortification in strategic places to stimy Northern efforts to invade instead on open warfare. Here are Rome's Limes! See not everywhere just in strategic places and excess points...

Only if the Confederate Leadership could have been so farsighted and creative, they could have used the rivers and mountains and trenches to make it almost impossible to invade in the east and in the west they could have a network of trenches fortification to protect vital infrastructure, croplands and stop the invader. A trench and fortification strategy would have drag out the war for years causing war weariness in the North and leading to victory. With this strategy, Atlanta may not have followed before 1864 election and giving the election to McClellan. Grant may have been stimy in the west and never rose in the ranks to lead all the Union armies. Think about it no Gettysburg or Sharpsburg...

It takes fewer men to defend a fortified position than it takes to overrun it. The old rule of thumb is a three to one ratio to attacker versus defenders. Yes, I am talking about World War One like trenches across Virginia parts of Tennessee, Mississippi, and Alabama protecting the core of the Confederacy. I never understood why the Confederacy never spiked the rivers in the west stopping all traffic... If the union tries to land troops along the coast again pick strategic places to put your tranches and fortifications to stimy any advance inland... The Overland campaign showed how quickly made fortifications are hard to overrun if not impossible.

I know you going to bring up the siege of Petersburg but that was not planned in advance and done at the end of the war after the Confederacy had little to no resources left. If they follow the strategy of conservation during the war they would have won... Davis strategy was wasteful of men and Lee's strategy of open warfare was unsustainable in men and supplies.

The Confederacy needed its own Hadrian Wall or Maginot Line or a few Roman Limes...

 

[5fish]

This actually one of my favorite threads because you learn throughout history people have been building walls to keep other people out and in time they never work...

I am not talking concrete but more earthworks with earth and timbers and ditches... as time goes by upgrade with better materials...
I do not think manpower would have been an issue if only done like in Virginia...

The Confederacy did not have the manpower sustain the loss of men and materials going toe to toe against the Union army in the east in open warfare, even with victories.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/all-lee-needed-was-a-tie-for-victory.119492/

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/your-surviving-the-war-was-better-under-grant-then-lee.119394/

 

[5fish]

I want to point out these defensive barriers and fortifications would have only been needed for less than 10 years... until the war weariness brought victory to the South... The South only needed a tie to win... Great Walls form the past...

The first great Wall... "Amorite Wall"...

The world’s earliest known civilization was also one of the first to build a defensive wall. During the 21st century B.C., the ancient Sumerian rulers Shulgi and Shu-Sin constructed a massive fortified barrier to keep out the Amorites, a group of nomadic tribesmen who had been making incursions into Mesopotamia. This “Amorite Wall” is believed to have stretched for over a hundred miles between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in what is now Iraq. It was likely the first extensive rampart not built around a city, but it only succeeded in fending off the Sumerians’ enemies for a few years. Hostile invaders either penetrated the wall or simply walked around it, and by the reign of Shu-Sin’s successor, Ibbi-Sin, Sumer found itself under attack from both the Amorites and the neighboring Elamites. After the destruction of the city of Ur around 2000 B.C., Sumerian culture began to vanish from history.

The Greeks "Longwall "worked...

Around 461 B.C., the Athenians sought to correct this vulnerability by constructing a series of barriers to connect the city center to the vital harbors of Piraeus and Phalerum. When completed, these “Long Walls” created a siege-proof triangle of land that allowed the city to easily resupply itself from the sea, which was itself guarded by the mighty Athenian navy. The fortifications made Athens all but impregnable during the Peloponnesian War with Sparta and its allies, but the city was later forced to surrender after its navy was defeated at sea. The victorious Spartans are then said to have dismantled the hated Long Walls to the sound of celebratory music from flute girls. The barriers were later rebuilt, however, and continued to stand until 86 B.C., when they were destroyed by the Roman general Sulla.

Alexander had a wall until Later they figured it was not for him... it may have worked...

Also known as the “Red Snake” for its distinctive red-colored bricks, the “Great Wall of Gorgon” was a 121-mile rampart that extended from the southern coast of the Caspian Sea to the Elburz Mountains in what is now Iran. It was once thought to have been the work of Alexander the Great—it was even known as “Alexander’s Barrier”—but more recent research suggests it was built by the Sasanian Persians sometime around the 5th century A.D. When completed, it was one of the longest walls of antiquity and boasted more than 30 forts, a garrison of 30,000 troops and a network of canals that acted as both a water supply system and a defensive moat. Surprisingly little is known about the wall’s history, but most scholars believe the Persians used it to guard against the Hephthalite Huns and other enemies to the north.

The Great Walls of Byzantine...

The Byzantine metropolis of Constantinople (modern day Istanbul) flourished for over a millennium thanks in part to the strength of its defensive walls. More than 14 miles of barricades surrounded the city, but the most famous were the Theodosian Walls, which blocked armies from advancing from the mainland. They included a moat, a 27-foot outer wall and a massive inner wall that was 40 feet tall and 15 feet thick. Troops stood guard on the ramparts at all times, ready to rain arrows and a type of ancient napalm called “Greek fire” on any enemy that dared attack them. The walls succeeded in turning back a host of would-be conquerors from the Arabs to Attila the Hun, but they finally met their match in 1453, when the Ottoman Empire besieged the city with a frightening new weapon—the cannon. After using their artillery to blast holes in the walls, the Turks poured through the breach and captured Constantinople, effectively toppling the Byzantine Empire.

https://www.history.com/news/7-famous-border-walls

 

[5fish]

WW one trenches in America... They built dummy trenches to teach soldiers about trench warfare... some snippets...

the link to the story... https://www.nps.gov/articles/training-for-trench-warfare.htm

During the American Civil War, Union and Confederate troops perfected the most sophisticated system of earthworks ever seen in battle. The Siege of Petersburg, June 1864 – April 1865, provides a snapshot of the birth of modern trench warfare, revealing significant developments in engineering and evolving military tactics and strategy due to advancements in technology, like rifled artillery. As a key supply center for the Confederate capital at Richmond, Virginia it was apparent to both Confederate General Robert E. Lee and Union General Ulysses S. Grant that if Petersburg was cut off, Richmond would fall and the war would be over. What resulted was an entrenched front that stretched for nearly 40 miles and 70,000 casualties over the course of ten months. The brutality of trench warfare in the Civil War was but a tiny preview of the horrors to come in World War I, just fifty years later.

In June, Camp Lee, named in honor of Robert E. Lee, was established near the battlefields of Petersburg where evidence of the siege still marred the earth.

Due to these less than ideal circumstances, the War Department created guidance which outlined a 16-week course on the scope of training necessary to provide new divisions with instruction on trench warfare. The booklet directed commanders to construct trench systems within each cantonment area, reiterating that “Instruction in trench warfare cannot be properly developed without a trench system. It will be one of the first duties of a division commander [...].” The Department further issued a directive of notes compiled by the British General Staff which contained detailed information about the construction and use of trenches.

 

[5fish]

Even the Germans and Danes share a wall... @rittmeister and @Wehrkraftzersetzer



You forgot to mention the great Danish wall "Danevirke" )Danes Bulwark). It goes back to 500AD and was added too and expanded.

Legend has it that queen Thyra ordered the Danevirke to be built. She was the wife of the first historically recognized king of Denmark, Gorm the Old (reign c. 936 – c. 958).

According to written sources, work on the Danevirke was started by the Danish King Gudfred in 808. Fearing an invasion by the Franks, who had conquered heathen Frisia over the previous 100 years and Old Saxony in 772 to 804, Godfred began work on an enormous structure to defend his realm, separating the Jutland peninsula from the northern extent of the Frankish empire. The Danes however, were also in conflict with the Saxons south of Hedeby during the Nordic Iron Age and recent archaeological excavations have revealed that the Danevirke was initiated much earlier than King Gudfred's reign, around 500 AD and probably well before that even.

The Danevirke consists of several walls, trenches, and the Schlei Barrier. The walls stretch for 30 km, from the former Viking trade centre of Hedeby near Schleswig on the Baltic Sea coast in the east to the extensive marshlands in the west of the peninsula. One of the walls (named Østervolden), between the Schlei and Eckernförde inlets, defended the Schwansen peninsula.

he Danevirke is about 30 kilometres (19 mi) long overall, with a height varying between 3.6 and 6 metres (12 and 20 ft). During the Middle Ages, the structure was reinforced with palisades and masonry walls, and was used by Danish kings as a gathering point for Danish military excursions, including a series of crusader raids against the Slavs of the south Baltic. In particular, the 12th-century King Valdemar the Great reinforced parts of the Danevirke with a brick wall, which enabled a continued military use of this strategically important structure. The reinforced parts of the structure are consequently known in Danish as Valdemarsmuren (lit: Valdemar's wall).[8

The last military use of the Danevirke was during the Second Schleswig War in 1864. Due especially to the above-mentioned emotive nationalist symbolism, public opinion in Denmark and the Danish military had expected the coming battle to take place along the Danevirke. After centuries of abandonment and decay, the Danevirke fortifications were partially restored, strengthened, and equipped with artillery installations in 1850 and 1861

Well look, the Danes work on their wall over time in like 6 stages... so the wall either worked for the Danes or it was a political tool to give people false hope... You can see pictures of the wall to this day if you google it...

 

[rittmeister]

you see how evil those danes are?

 

[5fish]

yozu see how evil those danes are?

You think Vikings have an evil side...

 

[5fish]

There were great walls in China before the "Great Wall" ...

Gary Feinman, who is with the Field Museum of Chicago, didn't set out to excavate what he now calls "the first Great Wall." He was simply walking around eastern China's Shandong province, staring at the ground like any good archaeologist, looking for tiny pieces of pottery.

Link... https://www.npr.org/2013/12/29/255550362/centuries-before-chinas-great-wall-there-was-another

India has a Great Wall...

The wall that surrounds the ancient fort of Kumbhalgarh is one of the best-kept secrets in India, and perhaps the world. Protecting a massive fort that contains over 300 ancient temples, the wall was constructed half a millennium ago in tandem with Kumbhalgarh Fort itself.

Head to Kumbhalgarh in Rajasthan. There you'll find a 15th-century hilltop fort surrounded by a 22-mile protective perimeter known as the Great Wall of India. Built by Rana Kumbha, then ruler of the western Indian region of Mewar, the fort has over 360 temples scattered within its boundary walls.

Link with pictures... http://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_ob...eter_is_known_as_the_great_wall_of_india.html

 

[5fish]

In the last two hundred years... Remember, the win is stalling the union war effort until the northern people tried of the war... I figure something less then 10 years.. I agree the barrier idea if it could work would be somewhere accross Virginia in tandem with the river system..

This thought is not far off the Overland was basically Lee getting to the Ford of a river and blocking it. The Overland campaign was a moving entrenchment. Lee beats Grant to a spot and digs in and either Grant would tries force his way or moves to the next crossing point. I think it's funny you read about Lee and Grant wanting to fight an open field battle but Lee control the field of battle he could have allowed Grant to cross unhindered and fought in open battle. It seems Lee knew better...

 

[rittmeister]

There were great walls in China before the "Great Wall" ...

Gary Feinman, who is with the Field Museum of Chicago, didn't set out to excavate what he now calls "the first Great Wall." He was simply walking around eastern China's Shandong province, staring at the ground like any good archaeologist, looking for tiny pieces of pottery.

Link... https://www.npr.org/2013/12/29/255550362/centuries-before-chinas-great-wall-there-was-another

India has a Great Wall...

The wall that surrounds the ancient fort of Kumbhalgarh is one of the best-kept secrets in India, and perhaps the world. Protecting a massive fort that contains over 300 ancient temples, the wall was constructed half a millennium ago in tandem with Kumbhalgarh Fort itself.

Head to Kumbhalgarh in Rajasthan. There you'll find a 15th-century hilltop fort surrounded by a 22-mile protective perimeter known as the Great Wall of India. Built by Rana Kumbha, then ruler of the western Indian region of Mewar, the fort has over 360 temples scattered within its boundary walls.

Link with pictures... http://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_ob...eter_is_known_as_the_great_wall_of_india.html

how about the limites? you have one of them

... the chinese and roman empires are gone - walls don't work. there's some dude in your country who needs to be informed about that.

 

[5fish]

how about the limites? you have one of them

I admit I did not go into Limes(Limites) in detail but I did show a map of them in the first post...

The soldiers at a limes were referred to as limitanei. Compared to the regular Roman military, they tended to be more likely to be of local descent (rather than Italians), be paid less, and be overall less prestigious. However, they were not expected to win large scales wars, but rather deter small-to-medium sized raiders.

Notable examples of Roman frontiers include:

• Hadrian's Wall – Limes Britannicus (UNESCO World Heritage ID 430bis–001)
• Antonine Wall – in Scotland (UNESCO World Heritage Site[1][2])
• Saxon Shore, late Roman limes in South-East England
• Limes Germanicus, with the Upper Germanic & Rhaetian Limes (UNESCO World Heritage ID 430bis–002)
• Limes Arabicus, the frontier of the Roman province of Arabia Petraea facing the desert
• Limes Tripolitanus, the frontier in modern Libya facing the Sahara
• Limes Alutanus, the eastern border of the Roman province of Dacia
• Limes Transalutanus, the frontier in the lower Danube
• Limes Moesiae, the frontier of the Roman province Moesia, from Singidunum Serbia along the Danube to Moldavia.
• Limes Norici, the frontier of the Roman province Noricum, from the River Inn along the Danube to Cannabiaca (Zeiselmauer-Wolfpassing) in Austria.
• Limes Pannonicus, the frontier of the Roman province Pannonia, along the Danube from Klosterneuburg Austria to Taurunum in Serbia.
• Fossatum Africae, the southern frontier of the Roman Empire, extending south of the Roman province of Africa in North-Africa.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_(Roman_Empire)

Yes, all walls fail to over time but they are simple ideas that are easy for the populations to understand.

 

[5fish]

Japan used walls to repulse the second Mongol invasion...

Did you know the Japanese built walls along the beaches after the first Mongol invasion?

https://www.thoughtco.com/the-mongol-invasions-of-japan-195559

Then Japan prepared for a second attack. The leaders of Kyushu took a census of all available warriors and weaponry. In addition, Kyushu's landowning class was given the task of building a defensive wall around Hakata Bay, five to fifteen feet high and 25 miles long. Construction took five years with each landholder responsible for a section of the wall proportional to the size of his estate.

It has a name: Wiki...

The Genkō Bōrui (元寇防塁 Genkō Bōrui) was a defensive stone wall, 20 kilometres (12 mi) long, constructed along Hakata Bay in Japanin preparation for an attack by Mongol forces of the Yuan dynasty after the first attack of 1274.[1]

The second attack of 1281 was thwarted by a typhoon, or kamikaze, and the Mongols were forced to withdraw.[2] In the Edo period, some of the stones were reused for the construction of Fukuoka Castle, though Genkō Bōrui has remained intact at several points along the Hakata Bay. It was originally called "Ishitsuiji" (石築地). It was designated a national historic site on March 30, 1931.

The wall worked:Wiki...

A part of Genkō Bōrui was completed before the second invasion and prevented the enemy from landing immediately. The invaders were forced to anchor their ships at Shikanoshima Island. The battles occurred over several months between several thousand evenly-matched combatants. Takezaki Suenaga of Higo Province joined the battles and had artists draw scrolls concerning the Battle of Kōan. This second attack of 1281 was finally thwarted by a typhoon or kamikaze, and the Mongols were forced to withdraw.[6]

Even later, the defense system was continued and remained intact until 1332.

 

[5fish]

I have an identity crisis my German homeland was inside the Roman Lime so am I Roman or Germanic Tribesman? Am I German or Italian?

I do not have time for this during a killer virus outbreak... If I am German than I might survive but if I am Italian they are not fairing well...

AAAAAA What's my identity? Maybe I read the map and my German homeland is on the German side of the Lime.... the link is to the map...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Limes2.png

 

[rittmeister]

I have an identity crisis my German homeland was inside the Roman Lime so am I Roman or Germanic Tribesman? Am I German or Italian?

I do not have time for this during a killer virus outbreak... If I am German than I might survive but if I am Italian they are not fairing well...

AAAAAA What's my identity? Maybe I read the map and my German homeland is on the German side of the Lime.... the link is to the map...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Limes2.png

you are among those too weak to keep the invaders at bay but so am i as my place of birth is castra regina (left edge of the map - just beneath the limes)

 

[5fish]

birth is castra regina (left edge of the map - just beneath the limes)

I think your among us as well too weak to keep the invaders out... You were born in Regensburg... maybe your ancestors lived just outside the city to the north ... My ancestors town is north of Baden-Baden

 

[rittmeister]

I think your among us as well too weak to keep the invaders out... You were born in Regensburg... maybe your ancestors lived just outside the city to the north ... My ancestors town is north of Baden-Baden

actually, a little to the south of it

 

[5fish]

I found this bit of info about walls... Walls ho up it means ypur on the way out...

In Empires and Walls Mohammad A. Chaichian meticulously examines the rise and fall of the walls that are no longer around; as well as impending fate of 'neo-liberal' barriers that imperial and colonial powers have erected in the new Millennium. Based on four years of extensive historical and field-based research Chaichian provides compelling evidence that regardless of their rationale and functions, walls always signal the fading power of an empire.

 

[Jim Klag]

I found this bit of info about walls... Walls ho up it means ypur on the way out...

In Empires and Walls Mohammad A. Chaichian meticulously examines the rise and fall of the walls that are no longer around; as well as impending fate of 'neo-liberal' barriers that imperial and colonial powers have erected in the new Millennium. Based on four years of extensive historical and field-based research Chaichian provides compelling evidence that regardless of their rationale and functions, walls always signal the fading power of an empire.

Repeating the exact same citation in two separate threads does not the truth make. It just means you said it twice.

 

[5fish]

Repeating the exact same citation in two separate threads does not the truth make. It just means you said it twice.

I am not trying to make it true but I left it applied to both threads. On this thread I was showing when empires start building wall it's the beginning of the end.

 

[Jim Klag]

I am not trying to make it true but I left it applied to both threads. On this thread I was showing when empires start building wall it's the beginning of the end.

I'm not so sure of that. The Chinese empire lasted until the 20th century, 600 years after they built their wall. The Roman Empire lasted for several hundred years after Hadrian's wall was built. The walls at Constantinople lasted until the invention of cannons. The walls around ancient Athens were never breached. The Spartans tore them down after defeating Athens in a naval war. It seems only the Maginot Line and the Berlin Wall were symbols of rapidly fading empire.