Government funding for Confederate statues?

rittmeister

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Throw the paint... bring the hammers... A confederate monument is not a historic treasure but a monument to traitors and white supremacy. No one would think of making Jewish people walk by statues to Nazi so why do we force our fellow African Americans to walk past Confederate monuments, ride on roads and highways named after confederate traitors or go to schools named after Confederate traitors. It is wrong and it does not matter if you had family members fight for the Confederacy. For they were wrong to be traitors and it is wrong today to honor them.
you wouldn't have found one a year after that ghastly time was over - all you can find are memorials for the fallen which show mostly names and ornamental stuff like iron crosses (which itself was established during the napoleonic wars). there are many headstones for people who fell during that time but you can easily see where the phrase 'für führer, volk und vaterland' has been chiseled out.

disclaimer: i'm not comparing confederates to nazis. those are completely differnt pairs of shoes;. both wearing grey simply isn't enough. i'm only expanding on what @5fish posted

edit to add:

there are some with eagles, or even statues of soldiers but those are for the first world war and where simply expanded after the second. we also rarely did on side monuments but if we did that they where a lot bigger like the tannebergdenkmal.


picture is from wikipedia: tannenberg memorial
 

Viper21

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Throw the paint... bring the hammers... A confederate monument is not a historic treasure but a monument to traitors and white supremacy. No one would think of making Jewish people walk by statues to Nazi so why do we force our fellow African Americans to walk past Confederate monuments, ride on roads and highways named after confederate traitors or go to schools named after Confederate traitors. It is wrong and it does not matter if you had family members fight for the Confederacy. For they were wrong to be traitors and it is wrong today to honor them.
o_O

Once again, you've got your emotions, & subjective interpretations, confused with reality. You should be careful encouraging chaos, & unlawful acts based on emotions. Once all the monuments you find objectionable are removed, perhaps folks will come after things you honor, & cherish. To date, I've never been in favor of removing monuments, street names, or buildings, etc that I find objectionable. Keep pushing though. There are unintended consequences of this mentality, that you won't appreciate. I most likely won't be an advocate then either but, I will have a smile on my face comparable to Nicholas Sandmann. Be careful what you wish for... ;)
 

Wehrkraftzersetzer

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o_O

Once again, you've got your emotions, & subjective interpretations, confused with reality. You should be careful encouraging chaos, & unlawful acts based on emotions. Once all the monuments you find objectionable are removed, perhaps folks will come after things you honor, & cherish. To date, I've never been in favor of removing monuments, street names, or buildings, etc that I find objectionable. Keep pushing though. There are unintended consequences of this mentality, that you won't appreciate. I most likely won't be an advocate then either but, I will have a smile on my face comparable to Nicholas Sandmann. Be careful what you wish for... ;)
as declaring secession?

 

Andersonh1

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Secession was entirely lawful, though in my opinion the Southern states should have swallowed some pride, taken their secession declarations to Congress, and made agreements with the Northern states, who would in likelihood have agreed to separation, and Lincoln could have done nothing about it.
 

jgoodguy

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Secession was entirely lawful, though in my opinion the Southern states should have swallowed some pride, taken their secession declarations to Congress, and made agreements with the Northern states, who would in likelihood have agreed to separation, and Lincoln could have done nothing about it.
Secession was outside of law, outlawry and without the protection of the law, and decided by war.
 

Andersonh1

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o_O

Once again, you've got your emotions, & subjective interpretations, confused with reality. You should be careful encouraging chaos, & unlawful acts based on emotions. Once all the monuments you find objectionable are removed, perhaps folks will come after things you honor, & cherish. To date, I've never been in favor of removing monuments, street names, or buildings, etc that I find objectionable. Keep pushing though. There are unintended consequences of this mentality, that you won't appreciate. I most likely won't be an advocate then either but, I will have a smile on my face comparable to Nicholas Sandmann. Be careful what you wish for... ;)
Battle of the statues will not end well

https://www.fredericksburg.com/opinion/editorial-battle-of-the-statues-will-not-end-well/article_ecb5bf83-d58d-5084-9e8c-8355e9c3aaab.html

THREATENING to remove statues of historical figures erected in the past, including those of Confederate leaders and slave-holding Founding Fathers, has become something of a political sport in the Old Dominion, allowing Democrats to score points with their base while virtue signaling their opposition to slavery, which was abolished in the United States 157 years ago this month by Republican President Abraham Lincoln.

But before the new Democratic majority in the General Assembly forges ahead with plans to repeal a state law forbidding local governments from removing these monuments, they should first consider the law of unintended consequences. What’s to prevent localities from tearing down statues or monuments to other out-of-favor historical figures?

-----------------

The state law protecting monuments was meant to be a firewall against self-appointed censors who want to control what the public sees in the public square. But all major historic figures were flawed products of their particular time and place, as are their memorials. Yet they are also a physical symbol and a reminder of both the good and the bad in Virginia’s cultural and political past.

And once you start tearing them down, there’s no end to it.


 

5fish

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o_O

Once again, you've got your emotions, & subjective interpretations, confused with reality. You should be careful encouraging chaos, & unlawful acts based on emotions. Once all the monuments you find objectionable are removed, perhaps folks will come after things you honor, & cherish. To date, I've never been in favor of removing monuments, street names, or buildings, etc that I find objectionable. Keep pushing though. There are unintended consequences of this mentality, that you won't appreciate. I most likely won't be an advocate then either but, I will have a smile on my face comparable to Nicholas Sandmann. Be careful what you wish for... ;)
You have taken the tac. Answer the question that we southerns refuse to answer:

Do we have the right to we force Afican-Americans to go to schools, ride on roads, or walk past monument to Confederate traitor's?

If your answer is yes "why" ...

If it is wrong than paint and hammers to Confederate monuments is civil disobedience.
 

Andersonh1

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Do we have the right to we force Afican-Americans to go to schools, ride on roads, or walk past monument to Confederate...
Do we have the right to not be offended?

Are the assumed feelings of a certain group the only determining factor in whether a monument or memorial should remain in public view?

Do we force people to drive on certain roads and pass certain monuments? How do we do this?

Do those of us who favor keeping those historical monuments right where they are have no feelings worth respecting?

Why do you assume all black people feel the same? Every poll over in the polling thread shows divided opinions among that demographic.

Where does the removal of monuments to assuage hurt feelings end? Where do we stop? Or do we? Do we remove everything from the landscape that someone finds offensive? Where do you draw the line?
 

5fish

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What’s to prevent localities from tearing down statues or monuments to other out-of-favor historical figures?
What you and the article forgotten ages ago locals put these statues and monuments up. If the locals of today want them to come down it's thier choice, not outsiders. The modern locals may want to put up new statues and monuments to new heros they want to relish... Remember, we have to update our heros as time moves on and be honest about past heros faults...
 
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Wehrkraftzersetzer

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What you and the article forgotten ages ago locals put these statues and monuments up. If the locals want them to come down it's there choice, not outsiders. The modern locals may want to put up new statues and monuments to new heros they want to relish... Remember, we have to update our heros as time moves on and be honest about past heros faults...
European nobility was first based on

01) slaughtering people
02) than on education (only short term)
03-07) slaughtering people
08) amount of taxes paid (yet another short term)
09) slaughtering people again
10) stopped to be awarded (at least in most of Europe - those who lost WWI + those who would have lost if there hadn't been those Tommis & Yanks))
 
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5fish

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But all major historic figures were flawed products of their particular time and place, as are their memorials. Yet they are also a physical symbol and a reminder of both the good and the bad in Virginia’s cultural and political past.
Yes symbols, we have history class, books and wiki to remind us of our past heros good and bad deeds.

And once you start tearing them down, there’s no end to it
Why! Why should it end? We the people of now decide what stays , what goes, and what is made? After us ,future people will make those choices.

It should never end because we as people have to revaluate our humanity constantly...
 

jgoodguy

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Yes symbols, we have history class, books and wiki to remind us of our past heros good and bad deeds.



Why! Why should it end? We the people of now decide what stays , what goes, and what is made? After us ,future people will make those choices.

It should never end because we as people have to revaluate our humanity constantly...
There is only the quick and the dead and the dead gets no vote.

Everyday historical stuff gets torn down for new buildings, roads and things for the living. I fail to see the exception of CSA monuments.
 

jgoodguy

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Do we have the right to not be offended?
No. There is no such right. Freedom of expression is predicated on being offended.
Are the assumed feelings of a certain group the only determining factor in whether a monument or memorial should remain in public view?
If said group petitions the government for a redress of grievances or simply gets their politicians in charge and the monuments come down, it seems to me to be simply politics as normal.
Do we force people to drive on certain roads and pass certain monuments? How do we do this?
If it is the only road or even the most convenient road. Up or down the question is a political one, enough snowflakes becomes a blizzard.
Do those of us who favor keeping those historical monuments right where they are have no feelings worth respecting?
Only if you have the political power to demand respect.
Why do you assume all black people feel the same? Every poll over in the polling thread shows divided opinions among that demographic.
Why do you assume all whites believe as you do?
Where does the removal of monuments to assuage hurt feelings end? Where do we stop? Or do we? Do we remove everything from the landscape that someone finds offensive? Where do you draw the line?
It is called political power and elections.
 

5fish

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Do we have the right to not be offended?
Not about offense but the humiliation of a people...

It was the Confederacy that fought to preserve Slavery. It was X-Confederates that passed Black code laws. It was X-Confederates that gave of the Jim Crow era. All these actions are offensive but they are a humiliation of a people.
Confederate statues and Monuments go beyond offensive but to hurtful to remind a African-Americans when they were powerless people in America a shameful moment for everyone. Confederate statues and monuments are a moral wrong... and civil disobedience is required to shame society ... so society will do the right actions...
 

Viper21

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Not about offense but the humiliation of a people...

It was the Confederacy that fought to preserve Slavery. It was X-Confederates that passed Black code laws. It was X-Confederates that gave of the Jim Crow era. All these actions are offensive but they are a humiliation of a people.
Confederate statues and Monuments go beyond offensive but to hurtful to remind a African-Americans when they were powerless people in America a shameful moment for everyone. Confederate statues and monuments are a moral wrong... and civil disobedience is required to shame society ... so society will do the right actions...
Who passed the Black code laws in Illinois..? Asking for a friend.....

It will be a sad day in our country, when all historical figures, & monuments to the dead, are removed from the public landscape. Pretty narcissistic imo.
 

rittmeister

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It will be a sad day in our country, when all historical figures, & monuments to the dead, are removed from the public landscape. Pretty narcissistic imo.
when we tore down all of our adolfs we still kept most of our ottos - fortunately those who wanted to keep an adolf or two got no say in the matter.
 

Andersonh1

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Not about offense but the humiliation of a people...

It was the Confederacy that fought to preserve Slavery. It was X-Confederates that passed Black code laws. It was X-Confederates that gave of the Jim Crow era. All these actions are offensive but they are a humiliation of a people.
Confederate statues and Monuments go beyond offensive but to hurtful to remind a African-Americans when they were powerless people in America a shameful moment for everyone. Confederate statues and monuments are a moral wrong... and civil disobedience is required to shame society ... so society will do the right actions...
That is your opinion. It's not the opinion of everyone by any means, and it certainly ignores many facts of history, as well as getting some dead wrong. Jim Crow began in the North, for example, not the South. And if you examine the paper trail for Confederate monuments, you'll find that the majority, especially early on, were essentially gravestones for soldiers whose resting place was not known. The idea that they were placed to intimidate the local black population is not supported by the evidence. Maybe I should start a thread quoting some of the dedication speeches and even in some cases documentation of these associations formed to erect a monument that state the purpose of the monument quite clearly. It might be eye-opening to you.
 

Viper21

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when we tore down all of our adolfs we still kept most of our ottos - fortunately those who wanted to keep an adolf or two got no say in the matter.
How many innocent people did Hitler kill....10, 15, 20 million..? I'm just referencing those exterminated, not battle deaths.

How many widows, & fatherless children, donated money to erect statues of Hitler post war..?
 

Viper21

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Maybe I should start a thread quoting some of the dedication speeches and even in some cases documentation of these associations formed to erect a monument that state the purpose of the monument quite clearly. It might be eye-opening to you.
That would be a great thread. Though I suspect it will fall on deaf ears, or in this case eyes. Emotions, & modern interpretations, override facts don't ya know..?
 

O' Be Joyful

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Maybe I should start a thread quoting some of the dedication speeches and even in some cases documentation of these associations formed to erect a monument that state the purpose of the monument quite clearly. It might be eye-opening to you.
I encourage you to do so. I am always welcome to the possibility of having my eyes and mind opened further.
 
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