Fort Sumter and Confederate Diplomacy

Kirk's Raider's

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how would a 'gandhi' fit into the mid-19th century usa - other than dead with tumbleweeds rolling around him, that is?
That's the great unknown. We know exactly how badly violent secession worked out for the Confederacy. The great unknown is the legal dilemma the Lincoln Adminstration would of faced if the secessionists had utilized Ghanaian tactics.
For example if say 20k plus unarmed Southerners surrounded a US fort of land supplies to said fort how would the Lincoln Adminstration react?
On the other hand how does non violent resistance stop supply ships to Ft.Sumter?
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jgoodguy

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That's the great unknown. We know exactly how badly violent secession worked out for the Confederacy. The great unknown is the legal dilemma the Lincoln Adminstration would of faced if the secessionists had utilized Ghanaian tactics.
For example if say 20k plus unarmed Southerners surrounded a US fort of land supplies to said fort how would the Lincoln Adminstration react?
On the other hand how does non violent resistance stop supply ships to Ft.Sumter?
Kirk's Raider's
As we enter the land of what-ifs. The CSA 'could have' either supplied hardtack to the fort or allowed the landing of supplied under inspection. For that matter, simply fired warning shots at the Fox expedition and simply starved Sumter out. Mass land artillery vs wood ships is not a good thing to run under.

Keep in mind the possibilities at the time of the first shot at Sumter include a divided North with Lincoln being blamed for starting war resulting in Southern Independence. The experience of Southerners in the past was a divided North allowing them to get their way. That happens, and Davis looks like a purely inspired genus whose face is on 20th-century CSA dollar bills instead of a dog that took his nation down to oblivion.

The fact that we have read the ending of the Sumter incident does not mean that it was preordained at the beginning.
 

Kirk's Raider's

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As we enter the land of what-ifs. The CSA 'could have' either supplied hardtack to the fort or allowed the landing of supplied under inspection. For that matter, simply fired warning shots at the Fox expedition and simply starved Sumter out. Mass land artillery vs wood ships is not a good thing to run under.

Keep in mind the possibilities at the time of the first shot at Sumter include a divided North with Lincoln being blamed for starting war resulting in Southern Independence. The experience of Southerners in the past was a divided North allowing them to get their way. That happens, and Davis looks like a purely inspired genus whose face is on 20th-century CSA dollar bills instead of a dog that took his nation down to oblivion.

The fact that we have read the ending of the Sumter incident does not mean that it was preordained at the beginning.
Well to quote the great Ole who said something to the effect that alternative history is akin to science fiction ; we just can't know an unknown.
Most definitely a huge what if scenario is what would of happened if the secessionists had about fifty years prior to Gandhi's protest's in South Africa adopted Gandhian tactics? It's certainly possible that Gandhi studied the ACW and his tactics were influenced by the outcome of the ACW.
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jgoodguy

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Well to quote the great Ole who said something to the effect that alternative history is akin to science fiction ; we just can't know an unknown.
Most definitely a huge what if scenario is what would of happened if the secessionists had about fifty years prior to Gandhi's protest's in South Africa adopted Gandhian tactics? It's certainly possible that Gandhi studied the ACW and his tactics were influenced by the outcome of the ACW.
Kirk's Raider's
Science fiction has to follow some rules in its universe. Even fantasy has to follow rules in its universe. What ifs have no rules.
IMHO the confederate leadership felt it had independence and interference with that independence was tantamount to war because of Southern pride and honor.
The correspondence indicates the Southern envoys to the North were instructed to demand recognition and surrender of Sumter and Pickens. Failure of those demands meant war and war came.
 

Kirk's Raider's

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Science fiction has to follow some rules in its universe. Even fantasy has to follow rules in its universe. What ifs have no rules.
IMHO the confederate leadership felt it had independence and interference with that independence was tantamount to war because of Southern pride and honor.
The correspondence indicates the Southern envoys to the North were instructed to demand recognition and surrender of Sumter and Pickens. Failure of those demands meant war and war came.
True enough and that is why the Confederacy was to stupid to be a nation Don Dixon stated.
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5fish

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HERE: https://www.tulane.edu/~sumter/Reflections/LinWar.html

Southern leaders of the Civil War period placed the blame for the outbreak of fighting squarely on Lincoln. They accused the President of acting aggressively towards the South and of deliberately provoking war in order to overthrow the Confederacy. For its part, the Confederacy sought a peaceable accommodation of its legitimate claims to independence, and resorted to measures of self-defence only when threatened by Lincoln's coercive policy. Thus, Confederate vice president, Alexander H. Stephens, claimed that the war was "inaugurated by Mr. Lincoln." Stephens readily acknowledged that General Beauregard's troops fired the "first gun." But, he argued, the larger truth is that "in personal or national conflicts, it is not he who strikes the first blow, or fires the first gun that inaugurates or begins the conflict." Rather, the true aggressor is "the first who renders force necessary."

Stephens identified the beginning of the war as Lincoln's order sending a "hostile fleet, styled the 'Relief Squadron'," to reinforce Fort Sumter. "The war was then and there inaugurated and begun by the authorities at Washington. General Beauregard did not open fire upon Fort Sumter until this fleet was, to his knowledge, very near the harbor of Charleston, and until he had inquired of Major Anderson . . . whether he would engage to take no part in the expected blow, then coming down upon him from the approaching fleet . . . When Major Anderson . . .would make no such promise, it became necessary for General Beauregard to strike the first blow, as he did; otherwise the forces under his command might have been exposed to two fires at the same time-- one in front, and the other in the rear." The use of force by the Confederacy , therefore, was in "self-defence," rendered necessary by the actions of the other side.

Jefferson Davis, who, like Stephens, wrote his account after the Civil War, took a similar position. Fort Sumter was rightfully South Carolina's property after secession, and the Confederate government had shown great "forbearance" in trying to reach an equitable settlement with the federal government. But the Lincoln administration destroyed these efforts by sending "a hostile fleet" to Sumter. "The attempt to represent us as the aggressors," Davis argued, "is as unfounded as the complaint made by the wolf against the lamb in the familiar fable. He who makes the assault is not necessarily he that strikes the first blow or fires the first gun."

Snip... Provoker...

In the twentieth century, this critical view of Lincoln's actions gained a wide audience through the writings of Charles W. Ramsdell and others. According to Ramsdell, the situation at Sumter presented Lincoln with a series of dilemmas. If he took action to maintain the fort, he would lose the border South and a large segment of northern opinion which wanted to conciliate the South. If he abandoned the fort, he jeopardized the Union by legitimizing the Confederacy. Lincoln also hazarded losing the support of a substantial portion of his own Republican Party, and risked appearing a weak and ineffective leader.

Lincoln could escape these predicaments, however, if he could induce southerners to attack Sumter,
"to assume the aggressive and thus put themselves in the wrong in the eyes of the North and of the world." By sending a relief expedition, ostensibly to provide bread to a hungry garrison, Lincoln turned the tables on the Confederates, forcing them to choose whether to permit the fort to be strengthened, or to act as the aggressor. By this "astute strategy," Lincoln maneuvered the South into firing the first shot.
 

5fish

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Here is the key to all the events up to Ft Sumter... Lincoln never in attend the Powhatan to go to FT. Sumter...

Link:http://joeryancivilwar.com/Sesquice...s/April-1861/What-Happened-in-April-1861.html


No originals of these messages have come down to us. There are more than one version of some of them, written by different persons. None of the messages in the record are in Lincoln’s hand, but their essential accuracy is confirmed by David D. Porter who received them from Lincoln’s hand and carried them to New York. (Porter does not tell us what he did with the order addressed to him.)

Executive Mansion, April 1, 1861

Commandant Andrew H. Foote, commanding Brooklyn Navy Yard

Sir: You will fit out the Powhatan without delay. Lieutenant Porter will relieve Captain Mercer in command of her. She is bound for secret service, and you will under no circumstances communicate to the Navy Department the fact that she is putting out.

Abraham Lincoln

Executive Mansion, April 1, 1861

Captain Samuel Mercer, U.S. Navy

Sir: Circumstances render it necessary to place in command of your ship, and for a special purpose, an officer who is duly informed and instructed in relation to the wishes of the Government, and you will therefore consider yourself detached.

Abraham Lincoln

Executive Mansion, April 1, 1861

Lieutenant David D. Porter

Sir: You will proceed to New York, and with the least possible delay assume command of the Powhatan. Proceed to Pensacola Harbor, and at any cost prevent any Confederate expedition from the mainland reaching Fort Pickens. This order, its object, and your destination will be communicated to no person whatever until you reach the harbor of Pensacola.

Abraham Lincoln

New York Times, April 1, 1861

1589733813885.png
 

5fish

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Is the story of the relief of FT Pickens in Florida you will see Seward by himself or with Lincoln played FT. Sumter as a ruse... It is a long and worthy a read... It oblivious Ft. Sumter was a ruse...

 

jgoodguy

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Is the story of the relief of FT Pickens in Florida you will see Seward by himself or with Lincoln played FT. Sumter as a ruse... It is a long and worthy a read... It oblivious Ft. Sumter was a ruse...

Sumpter was mostly politically significant, Pickens military.
 

5fish

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Sumpter was mostly politically significant, Pickens military.
Look at the lead up... Lincoln/Seward had two track paths keeping everyone out of one loop and letting everyone else think Ft. Sumter was going to be relieved... The USS Powhatan is given two sets of orders... It also suppose the lead the relief ship into Ft. Sumter but does not arrived because its heading to Florida... Lincoln makes sure for the South Carolina governor thinks a navy fleets coming to relieve Ft. Sumter...

I think the true question is: Was the ruse to ensure Ft. Pickens gets relieved or was the ruse an attempt to get the Confederacy to fire first... or both... History tells us their plan worked like a charm...
 

5fish

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Here is Fox expedition and the warships had limited orders for they were waiting for the Powhatan with orders... If you compare the two stories you see the weasels is Seward and Lincoln both are the only ones to know about each expeditions in detail. Lincoln never plan to relieve FT. Sumter but he made sure the spies in the Department of the navy new he was relieving it with warships. He made sure the Governor of South Carolina knew too...

LINK: https://www.historynet.com/mission-...r-september-97-americas-civil-war-feature.htm


Finally, when all preparations for Fox’s mission were complete, the various vessels sailed for Charleston. Each made its way south separately. On April 6 the frigate Powhatan, under the command of Captain Samuel Mercer, prepared to sail from New York. Other vessels, including the revenue cutter Harriet Lane and tugs Uncle Ben and Yankee, soon made their way south. The sloop of war Pawnee, under the command of Commander Stephen C. Rowan, sailed from Norfolk, Va., on April 9. Baltic, with Fox on board, dropped down to Sandy Hook at the mouth of New York Harbor on the evening of April 8 and put out to sea the following morning.

Almost from the beginning, the weather played havoc with the carefully laid plans. Soon after the steamer Baltic sailed, a heavy gale set in, badly scattering the expedition’s vessels and delaying the arrival of Fox’s force. When Baltic arrived at Charleston at 3 a.m. on April 12, only Harriet Lane had completed the voyage. By 6 a.m., Pawnee joined the force, but her orders limited her usefulness. Fox boarded the vessel to ask Commander Rowan to stand in toward shore, but the captain could not comply because his orders required him to remain 10 miles east of the lighthouse and await Powhatan’s arrival. Meanwhile, the Confederates had opened fire on Fort Sumter at 4:30 a.m. on April 12.


Snip...

Poor communications in Washington proved to be the biggest obstacle to Fox’s plan. Fort Sumter was not the only Federal-held fort in Southern territory that was threatened by the Confederates. The strategically vital forts along Florida’s Gulf Coast–Fort Taylor at Key West, Fort Jefferson in the Dry Tortugas and Fort Pickens at Pensacola–also required Federal attention. To support those forts, a relief expedition similar to Fox’s was being fitted out under the command of Navy Lieutenant David D. Porter. Secretary of State William H. Seward, without the knowledge of Secretary of the Navy Gideon Welles, had obtained Lincoln’s authorization to divert Powhatan to the gulf expedition. Just as she was preparing to sail from New York on April 6, Powhatan was ordered to leave the Charleston expedition and was sent to sea as part of the expedition to the Gulf of Mexico.

Powhatan’s transfer had a devastating impact on Fox’s mission. The Northern warship carried the armed launches and crews necessary to land troops and supplies from Baltic. To make matters worse, Fox did not learn of Powhatan’s diversion until April 13, a week after it had taken place.
 

5fish

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Somewhere Lincoln commits on the Fox expedition... https://www.tulane.edu/~sumter/Reflections/FoxExpFeas.html

I want to point out the last line the Confederates prepared and warned by who Lincoln....

Lincoln thought the Sumter expedition sufficiently practicable to send forward, but as he acknowledged to Fox afterwards, the "plan was not, in fact, brought to a test." In accounting for the mission's failure, Lincoln pointed to bad weather, the non-appearance of the tugboats, and his own responsibility for unintentionally depriving Fox of the Powhatan.

SNIP...

Fox blamed the expedition's failure on Secretary of State Seward. He claimed that Seward's "treachery" deprived him of the Powhatan, with its essential boats and crew, making the transfer of supplies and troops impossible. "Had the Powhatan arrived on the 12th," Fox wrote, "we should have had the men and provisions into Fort Sumter, as I had everything ready, boats, muffled oars, small packages of provisions, in fact everything but the 300 sailors promised to me by the [Navy] dept."

Snip...

But others disagreed with Fox. Both Major Anderson and Secretary of the Navy Welles believed that Confederate forces were numerous and forewarned, making reprovisioning and reinforcement impossible. Anderson argued that the plan "could not have been successfully executed on account of the many guns which could have been brought to bear by the batteries, while Welles agreed that the effort "probably would not have succeeded" because the rebels were prepared and warned of the intended expedition.
 

rittmeister

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guys, the south was quite diplomatic (in a quentin tarantino style meaning of the word)
 

diane

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I can't help thinking much of this playing with a hair trigger warped the plank Lincoln was elected on. With Seward's unauthorized back-door diplomacy, and his wish to create an incident in Florida or pick a fight with Britain as a common enemy would unite - in many ways Lincoln had no choices left. My belief is any Confederate representative or envoy would be instructed to tell Lincoln what was going to happen and force his rubber stamp - that pesky arrogance again! When the rube proved not to be a rube and a whole lot stronger than it appeared, they did not want to deal with him on any sort of equal footing - my way or the highway. Lincoln was forced into taking actions that he very seriously did not want to take.

The flashpoint for the war could very easily have been anywhere and not had one thing to do with Lincoln or his administration. For instance, it was a very good thing Robert E Lee was no longer in command of the Texas district. Twiggs sat down in the still warm chair Lee had vacated and handed the keys of the kingdom over to Ben McCulloch's merry band of rebels. When Lee arrived in another town, in US uniform, he was ordered to surrender to the local rebels there and told them what to do with themselves he wasn't surrendering to anybody. Had Twiggs been a day late, that's what Lee would have told Ben...and no doubt there would have been the first shots of the Civil War.
 

5fish

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Here from a cabinet Seward notes that to resupply Ft. Sumter would provoke war... Another cabinet member saying if they do not resupply the fort Sumter would show weakness.


Lincoln called his cabinet together to discuss his options. A Search on Fort Sumter provides numerous documents including the notes of Lincoln's cabinet members, such as Secretary of State William H. Seward, who warned, "The dispatch of an expedition to supply or reinforce Sumter would provoke an attack and so involve a war at that point." Secretary of the Interior Caleb B. Smith reasoned:

"If it shall be understood that by its evacuation we intend to acknowledge our inability to enforce the laws and our intention to allow treason & rebellion to run its course, the measure will be extremely disastrous and the Administration will become very unpopular. If however the country can be made to understand that the Ft is abandoned from necessity and at the same time Ft Pickens & other forts in our possession shall be defended and the power of the Govt vindicated, the measure will be popular & the country will sustain the Administration."



My point is shown here....
 

5fish

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I found this article saying the first shot of the Civil War was in Florida...


snip...

A raid 150 years ago by Confederate sympathizers on a Union fort at what is now Pensacola Naval Air Station was likely little more than an ill-planned and drunken misadventure, perhaps ended by one soldier's warning shot — and a blank one, at that.

But don't tell Pensacola residents that the Jan. 8, 1861, skirmish meant nothing — the event is the stuff of legend in this military town.


Some even claim the clash was the Civil War's first, three months before the battle on April 12, 1861, at South Carolina's Fort Sumter, which is widely recognized as the start of the war.

Dale Cox, the unofficial historian for the Florida Panhandle chapter of the Sons of the Confederate Veterans, wrote on his blog that he considers the Pensacola shot the first of the Civil War, saying in an interview that it marked the first time federal troops fired toward Confederate agitators.

"It is an interesting bit of history and I'd like to see Pensacola get more recognition for all of its Civil War history," he told The Associated Press.


snip...

On the night of Jan. 8, the men had raised a drawbridge around the fort, which dated to when Spain controlled Florida, because of growing tensions in the surrounding Naval yard, said historian David Ogden, a ranger at Gulf Islands National Seashore.

According to Slemmer's report, just after midnight, guards heard footsteps outside and challenged the intruders and heard no response, Ogden said. Slemmer made no mention of shots being fired.

snip..

Letter to widow
It wasn't until after the war ended in 1865 that one of the would-be intruders, R.L. Sweetman, wrote to Slemmer and later to Slemmer's widow and made reference to the blank shot fired at Fort Barrancas as the war's beginning.

"In his letter, Sweetman said something like 'Your husband can claim that he commanded the post where the first shot was fired,'" Ogden said.

The letter sparked the local legend that continues to this day
— and plays into Pensacolans' belief that their city has been cheated by history.

They also claim Pensacola and not St. Augustine, Fla., is the oldest city in North America, based on Pensacola's original founding in 1559 by the Spanish, compared to 1565 for its Atlantic coast rival


You will have to read the rest at the link...






 
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