Forrest statue in Tennessee

Matt McKeon

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Several stories about a statue of the former owner of slaves r' us in Tenn. that the historical commission wants to move.
 

Mike12

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Several stories about a statue of the former owner of slaves r' us in Tenn. that the historical commission wants to move.
He makes the whole idea of even honoring our veterans a joke in the first place. You know that one you can't avoid with the 30 confederate flags I-65 along the highway and a misshapen Nathan bedford Forrest statue toward Nashville? Its unavoidably road distraction, private property, and a joke. Nathan Bedford Forrest Statue - Wikipedia
I wouldn't doubt he's equally funny among his comrades. I don't see him in any of the "famous generals of the confederacy" histories. Someone needs to provide evidence to me of contemporary evidence of celebrating Forrest before the end of the war, before he was a civilian terror of no service in the KKK.

Amazon.com: Posterazzi Digitally restored featuring Famous Confederate Generals of the Civil War Poster Print, (33 x 24): Posters & Prints
Robert E. Lee and His Generals Painting by War Is Hell Store (pixels.com)
 

rittmeister

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I don't see him in any of the "famous generals of the confederacy" histories. Someone needs to provide evidence to me of contemporary evidence of celebrating Forrest before the end of the war, before he was a civilian terror of no service in the KKK
william t sherman said:
that devil Forrest must be hunted down and killed if it costs ten thousand lives and bankrupts the federal treasury
source

good enough?
 

diane

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Several stories about a statue of the former owner of slaves r' us in Tenn. that the historical commission wants to move.
Always have wondered why Forrest was the lightning rod for disputes - of many and varied kind - and why his history is play dough for those disputes. He became the mythical hero the children and grandchildren of the Confederates needed - not the reality they had. It behooves everyone to look at the era of monument building, at who was lionized and at what poetry was put on their graves and thereby into their mouths. It's not so important as to why Forrest but more important as to why was the UDC at that time crusading so hard that the Lost Cause become dogma for the whole nation, affecting even school textbooks for decades all over the country?

The poem on the statue formerly in Memphis explains what the friction is - and it is not because of anything Forrest or any other Confederate did in his life-time. What needs to be discussed is not necessarily the merits or defects of the person of whom the statue was erected, but the need of a certain segment of the community to do this. Here is the poem engraved on this statue - there's a reason the deep base of it is sterling white marble:

Those hoof beats die not upon fame's crimson sod
But will ring through her song and her story;
He fought like a titan, and struck like a god,
And his dust is our ashes of glory.

Mrs Virginia Frazer Boyle is the author of the poem. She was named Poet Laureate of the Confederacy by Jefferson Davis and the United Confederate Veterans in 1910. The United Daughters of the Confederacy, who were largely in Mrs. Boyle's generation, were zealous to install these monuments to a cause that was indeed lost and, as U S Grant said, the worst anyone ever fought for. They wanted to preserve the honor of their Ivanhoes. What is significant as well is all these men except literally a couple were dead and had no say about their lionization. Black Southerners just didn't have a participation ticket in any of this conversation - even though Forrest was the first (and only) Confederate general to say blacks were Southerners like himself by birthright. Therefore they definitely had a say in this. They didn't get it, of course, because the Lost Cause devotees held the battle was lost but the war would still be won. Apparently they were right - for a time.

Why create a Robin Hood of a Confederate general? What did Forrest mean? Well, for a couple generations of white Southerners it was exactly what William Faulkner said in 'Intruder in the Dust':
For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it’s still not yet two o’clock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it’s all in the balance, it hasn’t happened yet, it hasn’t even begun yet, it not only hasn’t begun yet but there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it’s going to begin, we all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment doesn’t need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much to lose and all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago….
 

diane

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Forrest at Brice's Crossroads - Edwin C Bearss. (For whoever might think Forrest was not a 'famous' general.)
 

Mike12

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source

good enough?
Not at all! Further proves a lot of silly renegade crap on the Western Theatre. Can I be honest, I don't feel studied whenever Western Theatre comes up. "The Western Theater typically receives less attention than the Eastern Theater. This has much to do with the greater proximity of action in the east to capitals and to major population centers. "
Have you seen a dozen confederate veteran parades? Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson together is there.

Western Theater of the American Civil War - Wikipedia

In a minor theatre of the war, which tends to have the major armies in the East, on the Confederate side of Generals of the Western Theater is the Famous Albert Johnston, P.H.T. Beauregard (Fort Sumter) , Joseph E Johnston (general Commander, Braxton Bragg, John Bell Hood, we know all these guys, and 2nd to last of the Lr. Generals is Nathan Bedford Forrest.
 
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Matt McKeon

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Always have wondered why Forrest was the lightning rod for disputes - of many and varied kind - and why his history is play dough for those disputes. He became the mythical hero the children and grandchildren of the Confederates needed - not the reality they had. It behooves everyone to look at the era of monument building, at who was lionized and at what poetry was put on their graves and thereby into their mouths. It's not so important as to why Forrest but more important as to why was the UDC at that time crusading so hard that the Lost Cause become dogma for the whole nation, affecting even school textbooks for decades all over the country?

The poem on the statue formerly in Memphis explains what the friction is - and it is not because of anything Forrest or any other Confederate did in his life-time. What needs to be discussed is not necessarily the merits or defects of the person of whom the statue was erected, but the need of a certain segment of the community to do this. Here is the poem engraved on this statue - there's a reason the deep base of it is sterling white marble:

Those hoof beats die not upon fame's crimson sod
But will ring through her song and her story;
He fought like a titan, and struck like a god,
And his dust is our ashes of glory.

Mrs Virginia Frazer Boyle is the author of the poem. She was named Poet Laureate of the Confederacy by Jefferson Davis and the United Confederate Veterans in 1910. The United Daughters of the Confederacy, who were largely in Mrs. Boyle's generation, were zealous to install these monuments to a cause that was indeed lost and, as U S Grant said, the worst anyone ever fought for. They wanted to preserve the honor of their Ivanhoes. What is significant as well is all these men except literally a couple were dead and had no say about their lionization. Black Southerners just didn't have a participation ticket in any of this conversation - even though Forrest was the first (and only) Confederate general to say blacks were Southerners like himself by birthright. Therefore they definitely had a say in this. They didn't get it, of course, because the Lost Cause devotees held the battle was lost but the war would still be won. Apparently they were right - for a time.

Why create a Robin Hood of a Confederate general? What did Forrest mean? Well, for a couple generations of white Southerners it was exactly what William Faulkner said in 'Intruder in the Dust':
Why is he a lightning rod.......I think because he was so awful. Slave dealer, his command murders Union prisoners, leading light of the KKK. I think the statue is a lot more recent, in Nineteen Eighty.
 

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Why is he a lightning rod.......I think because he was so awful. Slave dealer, his command murders Union prisoners, leading light of the KKK. I think the statue is a lot more recent, in Nineteen Eighty.
The one at Nashville? That one is...different! There were a series of 'in-your-face' statue building on private property, things like flying a gigantic Confederate flag that was visible all over a black neighborhood - things designed to spark bad feelings and 'you' can't do anything about it. I think that was one of them, and Forrest was the guy picked. That's why I say why is he the lightning rod? Others were very much involved in the KKK and slave trading - Wade Hampton for instance. Why not him? He was a very successful general, too. Not exactly a nice guy, either - his father joked about experimenting with certain medical procedures on his slaves but they died.

I mentioned Faulkner because Forrest is a recurring figure throughout his work, which was mostly about the clinging to the past many Southerners of his generation, and later generations, did for 100 years. Slavery wasn't that bad, the klan were good people, the South was right to war, nothing will change here. A Rose for Emily, for example. Forrest was the only Confederate general who wasn't well educated and came from a poor background - he was a perfect hero for people who felt disfranchised and robbed of their place in society. Mississippi, in particular, went from being the richest state to being the poorest. Forrest, too, went from being the richest man in Tennessee to back where he came from. Lots of his soldiers related to that.

In this type of atmosphere, there is no place for the free blacks, no heroes to worship for them, nothing nostalgic to long for. No, the only way for them was forward - and that made stepping on them even more important now that they were free. They would change things. The second they started to progress, to exercise their rights, up went the monuments! Nobody should be surprised they are coming down.
 

Mike12

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The one at Nashville? That one is...different! There were a series of 'in-your-face' statue building on private property, things like flying a gigantic Confederate flag that was visible all over a black neighborhood - things designed to spark bad feelings and 'you' can't do anything about it. I think that was one of them, and Forrest was the guy picked. That's why I say why is he the lightning rod? Others were very much involved in the KKK and slave trading - Wade Hampton for instance. Why not him? He was a very successful general, too. Not exactly a nice guy, either - his father joked about experimenting with certain medical procedures on his slaves but they died.

I mentioned Faulkner because Forrest is a recurring figure throughout his work, which was mostly about the clinging to the past many Southerners of his generation, and later generations, did for 100 years. Slavery wasn't that bad, the klan were good people, the South was right to war, nothing will change here. A Rose for Emily, for example. Forrest was the only Confederate general who wasn't well educated and came from a poor background - he was a perfect hero for people who felt disfranchised and robbed of their place in society. Mississippi, in particular, went from being the richest state to being the poorest. Forrest, too, went from being the richest man in Tennessee to back where he came from. Lots of his soldiers related to that.

In this type of atmosphere, there is no place for the free blacks, no heroes to worship for them, nothing nostalgic to long for. No, the only way for them was forward - and that made stepping on them even more important now that they were free. They would change things. The second they started to progress, to exercise their rights, up went the monuments! Nobody should be surprised they are coming down.
Its all about black progress. That burns my sideburns. How many Confederate Generals have I seen taken time to refuse a victorious Union on this?

Robert Dabney proposed that not a single black man went free when the North ended slavery a few years toward the war, the Northern States had just outlawed slavery, and none of those were freed, that went into Northern Pockets in sales of those slaves to the South.

The slaves not only as you heard from Robert E Lee , well clothed, fed, in civilization, better than in Africa, they are allowed equal access to many avenues in life I figure. The had that inclusive scene with Stonewall Jackson's chef in Gods and Generals. The square question when he has a very small bible study group , there aren't many African Americans in West Virginia for Stonewall Jackson to treasure his teaching in the Presbyterian Church.

Blacks were left destitute , given one meal, told to move on, were displaced, and this is the common cultural understanding to many. Blacks were not given moral support that they were used to. Blacks went up against some other system is all that amounts to.
 

diane

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Its all about black progress. That burns my sideburns. How many Confederate Generals have I seen taken time to refuse a victorious Union on this?

Robert Dabney proposed that not a single black man went free when the North ended slavery a few years toward the war, the Northern States had just outlawed slavery, and none of those were freed, that went into Northern Pockets in sales of those slaves to the South.

The slaves not only as you heard from Robert E Lee , well clothed, fed, in civilization, better than in Africa, they are allowed equal access to many avenues in life I figure. The had that inclusive scene with Stonewall Jackson's chef in Gods and Generals. The square question when he has a very small bible study group , there aren't many African Americans in West Virginia for Stonewall Jackson to treasure his teaching in the Presbyterian Church.

Blacks were left destitute , given one meal, told to move on, were displaced, and this is the common cultural understanding to many. Blacks were not given moral support that they were used to. Blacks went up against some other system is all that amounts to.
With the good Rev Dabney as your guiding light I'm not surprised you'd say 'better (a slave) than in Africa'. Seems to me somebody came and got a lot of people who didn't think Africa was bad at all, being that's where home and family and such were. By the way, read up on the civilizations and empires and rich cultures of Africa before you say silly things.
 

rittmeister

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I don't feel studied whenever Western Theatre comes up.
so why do you claim the right to issue remarks that contradict everything that's known about that theatre then? if a general wants a opponent dead asap that ussually has a reason and i don't think forrest took liberties with mrs sherman.
 

rittmeister

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With the good Rev Dabney as your guiding light I'm not surprised you'd say 'better (a slave) than in Africa'. Seems to me somebody came and got a lot of people who didn't think Africa was bad at all, being that's where home and family and such were. By the way, read up on the civilizations and empires and rich cultures of Africa before you say silly things.
he probably doesn't feel studied enough to refrain from wholesale nonsense.
 

Mike12

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so why do you claim the right to issue remarks that contradict everything that's known about that theatre then? if a general wants a opponent dead asap that ussually has a reason and i don't think forrest took liberties with mre sherman.
What did I contradict about the Western Theater? I quoted WIkipedia. The Western Theater is unknown to the population and lesser and unstudied.
 

Matt McKeon

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The one at Nashville? That one is...different! There were a series of 'in-your-face' statue building on private property, things like flying a gigantic Confederate flag that was visible all over a black neighborhood - things designed to spark bad feelings and 'you' can't do anything about it. I think that was one of them, and Forrest was the guy picked. That's why I say why is he the lightning rod? Others were very much involved in the KKK and slave trading - Wade Hampton for instance. Why not him? He was a very successful general, too. Not exactly a nice guy, either - his father joked about experimenting with certain medical procedures on his slaves but they died.

I mentioned Faulkner because Forrest is a recurring figure throughout his work, which was mostly about the clinging to the past many Southerners of his generation, and later generations, did for 100 years. Slavery wasn't that bad, the klan were good people, the South was right to war, nothing will change here. A Rose for Emily, for example. Forrest was the only Confederate general who wasn't well educated and came from a poor background - he was a perfect hero for people who felt disfranchised and robbed of their place in society. Mississippi, in particular, went from being the richest state to being the poorest. Forrest, too, went from being the richest man in Tennessee to back where he came from. Lots of his soldiers related to that.

In this type of atmosphere, there is no place for the free blacks, no heroes to worship for them, nothing nostalgic to long for. No, the only way for them was forward - and that made stepping on them even more important now that they were free. They would change things. The second they started to progress, to exercise their rights, up went the monuments! Nobody should be surprised they are coming down.
Not the weird carnival ride one. Jesus, the guy who put that together must have been on crack. I mean the one in the state capitol, the bust. Interesting thoughts on Forrest's background, and how it resonated with people.
 

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jgoodguy

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Why is he a lightning rod.......I think because he was so awful. Slave dealer, his command murders Union prisoners, leading light of the KKK. I think the statue is a lot more recent, in Nineteen Eighty.
So awful after the fact, but note that we would have not been a nation to have high sensibilities if we had high sensibilities in the beginning.
 

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Not the weird carnival ride one. Jesus, the guy who put that together must have been on crack. I mean the one in the state capitol, the bust. Interesting thoughts on Forrest's background, and how it resonated with people.
Politics put it up and politics will take it down.
 

rittmeister

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What did I contradict about the Western Theater? I quoted WIkipedia. The Western Theater is unknown to the population and lesser and unstudied.
you said stuff about nbf that makes no sense whatsoever for anybody who actually studied the western theater - for someone declaring themselves not learned about the subject that's kinda gutsy.
 
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