Did Lincoln follow precedents set by previous Presidents when dealing with the secession/rebellion of the southern states?

[TomEvans]

On another thread, I showed you the creation process of the Constitution, and everyone had a say...

And that's where I answered it.
It's not necessary to belabor how the sausage is made; that doesn't make beef into pork.

 

[5fish]

And the other 12 states simply got around unlucky Article 13, by lucky Article 7-- i.e. they just quit the confederation, to form a new one of their own.

You forget the Confederate Congress authorized the convention to do its duty, so 9 was the number, and you forget all 13 joined in the end, your argument is futile... You seem to ignore that the Convention was given the authority to fix the problems with the Articles... the power was in the convention...

 

[5fish]

So each state exercised its national sovereignty, in order to ratify the Constitution independently from the will of any other state.

All this isn't very meaningful if it had had any in the first place, once the Constitution was created and the states joined it all over... Your argument is academic at best...

 

[5fish]

And that's where I answered it.

You bounce around this repetitive argument that I've tired of repeating the truth to you...

 

[TomEvans]

You forget the Confederate Congress authorized the convention to do its duty, so 9 was the number, and you forget all 13 joined in the end, your argument is futile...

How can that POSSIBLY erase the national sovereignty of the individual states?

And again, the US government does not claim that the Constitution did this; but claims that the Union was always political superior to the states.

Likewise, each state was ruled by its respective legislature, not the Congress.

You seem to ignore that the Convention was given the authority to fix the problems with the Articles... the power was in the convention...

And they fixed it, by writing the Constitution instead.

As I explained, they did not require all states to adopt it, because they didn't have the authority.

 

[TomEvans]

You bounce around this repetitive argument that I've tired of repeating the truth to you...

And I've tired of proving that it's not the truth.

 

[TomEvans]

All this isn't very meaningful if it had had any in the first place, once the Constitution was created and the states joined it all over... Your argument is academic at best...

You just proved my argument.

You admit that the states were 13 fully-sovereign nations, before the Constitution.

Meanwhile the US government does not claim, that they lost it via the Constitution.

So where's your argument?

 

[5fish]

You just proved my argument.

NO, you have prove nothing.

You admit that the states were 13 fully-sovereign nations, before the Constitution.

The day they signed the Declaration of Independence was the day they became independent, and on that same day they willingly gave it up to the United States and never again... You seem to ignore that you can give up one's sovereignty. It is easier to give it up than get it back...

 

[5fish]

How can that POSSIBLY erase the national sovereignty of the individual states?

They willingly gave it up to become something greater...

 

[TomEvans]

They willingly gave it up to become something greater...

No, the US government's legal claim of national union, is based on the states NEVER being sovereign nations--- NOT their giving it up.



See that?

It says that NO STATE WAS WITHOUT A POLITICAL SUPERIOR WHILE IN THE UNION.

That is the legal argument, and the US government has stood by it ever since.
0

 

[TomEvans]

NO, you have prove nothing.



The day they signed the Declaration of Independence was the day they became independent, and on that same day they willingly gave it up to the United States and never again...

How do you figure?

 

[5fish]

Nations can give up their sovereignty... It can lose out altogether by being totally defeated in war...

Nations give up sovereignty voluntarily by joining international bodies (like the EU or WTO) and signing treaties, pooling power for collective benefits like trade or security, or through non-voluntary means like military conquest or collapse; also, extreme abuses of power (like genocide) can trigger international intervention, challenging state authority, while globalization and economic pressures inherently limit autonomy, forcing states to cede some control over policy, money, and information.

The Confederate States failed the sovereignty test because they could not defend their borders; similarly, the original states that joined the Confederacy failed the sovereignty test because they could not protect their borders... When a nation can not defend its borders and unconditionally surrenders all sovereignty is lost forever, unless restored...

The Confederate States of America (CSA) failed the sovereignty test because it couldn't achieve true independence, primarily due to lack of foreign recognition, internal disunity over states' rights versus central power, a weak economy (especially financing the war), and ultimately military defeat by the superior Union, proving it was an ineffective, temporary entity rather than a sovereign nation. While its constitution emphasized states' rights, its reality showed a struggle for central authority and cohesion, unable to withstand the pressure of war and international politics, which saw European powers (like Britain) declare neutrality instead of recognizing it.

Yes, Japan lost significant sovereignty and territory after losing WWII, with its authority reduced to the main home islands (Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and small surrounding islands) under Allied occupation, renouncing all overseas possessions like Korea, Taiwan, and Manchuria. While its government and Emperor remained, their power was subordinate to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers (SCAP) during the occupation (1945-1952), fundamentally changing its political structure and international standing, but Japan never lost its core national identity or sovereignty over the home islands.

Yes, France effectively lost its sovereignty to Germany in 1940 after its military defeat, leading to a divided France with a German-occupied north and a collaborationist Vichy regime in the south, though Charles de Gaulle's Free French movement fought on, allowing France to emerge as a victor and permanent UN Security Council member after the war.

 

[TomEvans]

Nations can give up their sovereignty... It can lose out altogether by being totally defeated in war...

The US government doesn't claim that the states did either one, but that the states declared national dependence on one another and the Union in 1776, making it their political superior.

It's amazing that you can't understand this.

 

[5fish]

The US government doesn't claim that the states did either one, but that the states declared national dependence on one another and the Union in 1776, making it their political superior.

This is your whole stick...

In a partnership, the partners are not superior to the partnership they created... The states are not superior to the creation they formed, called the United States. You ignore our Westphalian system of sovereignty...

Westphalian system - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Those states in the confederacy lost any sovereignty they had in defeat...

 

[TomEvans]

This is your whole stick...

In a partnership, the partners are not superior to the partnership they created...

But they're still sovereign, and can quit the partnership whenever they choose without become slaves to it-- it's not a corporate-merger.

Those states in the confederacy lost any sovereignty they had in defeat...

Then it was not a civil war but a self-coup, in which the Union-states lost their sovereignty as well.

(I knew if that I gave you enough rope, you'd hang yourself.... and so you just did.)

 

[5fish]

But they're still sovereign, and can quit the partnership whenever they choose without become slaves to it-- it's not a corporate-merger.

The partners are still individual men, but they have contributed their personal labor to the partnership for its benefit, as the colonies did in the Declaration of Independence... You ignore that our founding fathers created the Westphalian system, also known as Westphalian sovereignty, a principle of international law holding that each state has exclusive sovereignty over its territory. You ignore that there has never been a get out of union card...

Then it was not a civil war but a self-coup, in which the Union-states lost their sovereignty as well.

Self-coup never happens; it's a 20th-century term... the deaths of around 620,000 to 750,000 soldiers say otherwise... The military governors in the southern states, after the fighting ended, say otherwise... the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments say otherwise... that a civil war occurred... So, understand that those 13 Confederate states lost their limited sovereignty because they were unable to protect their borders... The question is, did the United States government restore its limited state sovereignty...

 

[TomEvans]

So, understand that those 13 Confederate states lost their limited sovereignty

HOW, if they supposedly never had it?
Are you on the spectrum by chance?

 

[5fish]

HOW, if they supposedly never had it?
Are you on the spectrum by chance?

Now let's do a remedial review... You imply that the 13 colonies were sovereign states (nation-states). Still, I counter (independent republics), but only for a moment, because in every document where they are declared sovereign, they hand over most of their Sovereignty to a new entity called the United States, not just once, but three times in three different documents... In all three documents, there was never an out cause... Yes, in these three documents, they retain sovereignty in selected areas of governance, only...

When the Civil War ended, the Confederacy lost all sovereignty it had, and all the states lost the limited sovereignty they had before the war. They were conquered lands given military governors and soldiers to enforce the law...

Under your reasoning if they were sovereign nation states that sovereignty gone! Once conquered how do you get your sovereignty back?

Dyslexia is what I have... Never diagnosed but I have read enough and watched videos to say I have it...

 

[TomEvans]

Now let's do a remedial review... You imply that the 13 colonies were sovereign states (nation-states). Still, I counter (independent republics), but only for a moment, because in every document where they are declared sovereign, they hand over most of their Sovereignty to a new entity called the United States, not just once, but three times in three different documents... In all three documents, there was never an out cause... Yes, in these three documents, they retain sovereignty in selected areas of governance, only...

What you call "sovereignty," is simply exclusivity by international agreement.




Before the Constitution, each state was supremely ruled by its respective legislature, which could overrule Congress in all things; while afterward it was the state's respective electorate, which could now overrule both the federal government and their respective state government-- as when the voters of South Carolina acted to withdraw their state from the international union formed under the US Constitution:



And the states NEVER gave up their national sovereignty-- which is why the US government simply claimed they NEVER HAD it to begin with (which is ALSO a lie).

So each state ALWAYS HAD de jure national sovereignty, as a separate sovereign nation unto itself, in international union with the other states; the supreme national authority simply changed, from the state's respective representatives, to its respective electorate, or people.

When the Civil War ended, the Confederacy lost all sovereignty it had, and all the states lost the limited sovereignty they had before the war.

There's no such thing as "limited national sovereignty;" that's an oxymoron. Sovereignty is supreme national authority, it by definition CANNOT be "limited" except by voluntary ongoing choice of such.

You're talking about federal usurpation of de jure national sovereignty, by mass-murder and deception, claiming national union where none had ever existed-- by an international government claiming engaged in a self-coup against then-34 fully-sovereign nations.

They were conquered lands given military governors and soldiers to enforce the law...

Exactly, conquered by SELF-COUP of an international government falsely claiming national union over 34 sovereign nations, to usurp de jure national sovereignty by mass-murder and deception.

Under your reasoning if they were sovereign nation states that sovereignty gone! Once conquered how do you get your sovereignty back?

By every person's inalienable right, to government by consent of the governed-- which requires that it be INFORMED consent: NOT tricked into compliance by a self-coup of mass-murder and deception, as well as Total War and censorship.

And so by informing every person of the FACTS, that they are under tyranny-by-deception; they can TAKE back their rightful sovereignty of their respective state, as a separate sovereign nation-- by FORMALLY WITHDRAWING consent to their government, which was ruthlessly stolen by fraud-in-the-inducement...
... and there's NO statute of limitations on that.

Dyslexia is what I have... Never diagnosed but I have read enough and watched videos to say I have it...

Then stop trying to tell me the written law.

 

[5fish]

xactly, conquered by SELF-COUP of an international government falsely claiming national union over 34 sovereign nations, to usurp de jure national sovereignty by mass-murder and deception.

Here is what happens to the Confederacy, according to your book: they cease to be sovereign in any sense of the word... Whatever sovereignty the states had before the war was gone at the end of it..

§ 11. Of a state that has passed under the dominion of another.
But a people that has passed under the dominion of another is no longer a state, and can no longer avail itself directly of the law of nations. Such were the nations and kingdoms which the Romans rendered subject to their empire; the generality even of those whom they honored with the name of friends and allies no longer formed real states. Within themselves they were governed by their own laws and magistrates; but without, they were in every thing obliged to follow the orders of Rome; they dared not of themselves either to make war or contract alliances; and could not treat with nations.

Sovereignty is supreme national authority, it by definition CANNOT be "limited" except by voluntary ongoing choice of such.

I have been telling you that the 13 colonies gave up selective sovereignty to create the United States and later gave up even more sovereignty as states to make the Constitution. It is why the United States is called a nation, and states are called "states" for they are the minor to the major... and above all is the consent of the people...