Did Lincoln follow precedents set by previous Presidents when dealing with the secession/rebellion of the southern states?

jgoodguy

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Matt, that one talks about something Lincoln was very concerned about and that was military emancipation. That's what ended up happening, and we're still dealing with the results.

A lot of what seems like being wishy-washy, or whatever will get me there I'll do it - wasn't really the problem with Lincoln. Before he was president, he could see his way clear to compromise, maneuver and work his political talent to achieve the mutually desired ends - he wanted to be a senator rather than president because this was his special talent. But once he was president, his duty, as he repeatedly told the South, was to uphold the Constitution. And...that sometimes proved to be dang hard if he wanted to hold the Union together.
Lincoln was lucky IMHO and took advantage of that luck.
 

diane

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Lincoln was lucky IMHO and took advantage of that luck.
He was amazingly able to adapt to the turns of fortune and make a cake out of dirt. The McCormick case, where he first met up with Stanton - the high powered legal team only had him because they needed a local lawyer but proceeded to treat him like the invisible man...but Lincoln hung in there. He figured where was a prairie lawyer like himself going to see such a great bunch of lawyers in action!
 

General Lee

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Discussion.

The most obvious precedent is Jackson's reaction to SC nullification crisis.
Another is Washington's reaction to the Whisky Rebellion.

However, both had been in office a long while and both ever experienced military men compared to Lincoln's absence from office when the crisis started, lack of experience, and not informed by Buchannan.

I'm not looking at legal precedents.

There are other issues of what exactly did Lincoln do to impeded secession before hostilities. After shots fired it is a hot war with obvious precedents.
Go for it.
I'd say no because of what Jefferson said " “If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation . . . to a continuance in union . . . I have no hesitation in saying, ‘let us separate.’” (Thomas Jefferson). Since he's a United states past president I don't think that Lincoln followed this at all.
 

O' Be Joyful

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I'd say no because of what Jefferson said " “If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation . . . to a continuance in union . . . I have no hesitation in saying, ‘let us separate.’” (Thomas Jefferson). Since he's a United states past president I don't think that Lincoln followed this at all.
I'm a bit hazy upon that quote. Is it from his Virginia Resolutions? Or The Kentucky Resolutions, which was Madison I believe?
 

Jim Klag

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I'd say no because of what Jefferson said " “If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation . . . to a continuance in union . . . I have no hesitation in saying, ‘let us separate.’” (Thomas Jefferson). Since he's a United states past president I don't think that Lincoln followed this at all.
Jefferson was stating a personal political opinion at a time when he was trying to get some of John Adams's Bill's nullified. Jackson's response to South Carolina when he said, “Disunion by armed force is TREASON.”. is much more apropos to the happenings in 1861.
 

O' Be Joyful

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I'm a bit hazy upon that quote. Is it from his Virginia Resolutions? Or The Kentucky Resolutions, which was Madison I believe?

To add: before Jefferson was President, I believe.

Amazin' how fellers change after they is a' sitting in That Chair.
 

General Lee

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I'm a bit hazy upon that quote. Is it from his Virginia Resolutions? Or The Kentucky Resolutions, which was Madison I believe?
Jefferson was talking about that time when there could have been a seperation, a Eastern federation and MIssissippi federation I think that's what they were called.
 

Jim Klag

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To add: before Jefferson was President, I believe.
No he wasn't President. The quote was in a letter he wrote in 1816, long after his administration.
Jefferson was talking about that time when there could have been a seperation, a Eastern federation and MIssissippi federation I think that's what they were called.
His quote had nothing whatever to do with any right to secede. He was mad at market speculators and stock gamblers in other states and basically said if you guys want to do that kind of stuff then go away and leave this rest of us yeoman farmers alone. We're better off without you. And then he stuck his tongue out at them. His slaves may have been Yeoman farmers but he certainly wasn't one.
 

General Lee

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No he wasn't President. The quote was in a letter he wrote in 1816, long after his administration.

His quote had nothing whatever to do with any right to secede. He was mad at market speculators and stock gamblers in other states and basically said if you guys want to do that kind of stuff then go away and leave this rest of us yeoman farmers alone. We're better off without you. And then he stuck his tongue out at them. His slaves may have been Yeoman farmers but he certainly wasn't one.
I see, thanks for the clarification. But he seams to approve of any state leaving like he said in his quote that sounds a lot like secession to me.
 

O' Be Joyful

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No he wasn't President. The quote was in a letter he wrote in 1816, long after his administration.

His quote had nothing whatever to do with any right to secede. He was mad at market speculators and stock gamblers in other states and basically said if you guys want to do that kind of stuff then go away and leave this rest of us yeoman farmers alone. We're better off without you. And then he stuck his tongue out at them. His slaves may have been Yeoman farmers but he certainly wasn't one.
I stand corrected.

His slaves may have been Yeoman farmers but he certainly wasn't one.
Ain't that the gawd's truth.
 

Jim Klag

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I see, thanks for the clarification. But he seams to approve of any state leaving like he said in his quote that sounds a lot like secession to me.
I like old Andy Jackson's quote better. "Disunion by armed force is TREASON." Capitalizing treason was in his proclamation. Andy didn't screw around. He told John C. Calhoun that, if necessary, he would hang Calhoun. Calhoun was his Vice-president.
 

O' Be Joyful

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I like old Andy Jackson's quote better. "Disunion by armed force is TREASON." Capitalizing treason was in his proclamation. Andy didn't screw around. He told John C. Calhoun that, if necessary, he would hang Calhoun. Calhoun was his Vice-president.
Later in life Andy was asked if he had any regrets.

'Yes", he proclaimed, "I should have shot Henry Clay and hanged Calhoun."
 

Jim Klag

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By the way, Lincoln held exactly the same opinion as Andrew Jackson about armed disunion. The difference was that the southerners damn well believed Andy would hang 'em all. Inititially I don't think they believed Abe was a badass. They thought Abe would be a pushover and it took them four years to realize he also was dead serious.
 

General Lee

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I like old Andy Jackson's quote better. "Disunion by armed force is TREASON." Capitalizing treason was in his proclamation. Andy didn't screw around. He told John C. Calhoun that, if necessary, he would hang Calhoun. Calhoun was his Vice-president.
Jefferson and the colonials technically committed treason by sticking to their cause, everyone knew that their names were out there and people involved put themselves and families at risk that sounds serious to me. They raised an Army and fought their former government, many men were hanged for it. But none wants to talk about that when it comes to people saying secession is treason, we were founded on revolution and arguably depending on your view treason.
 

diane

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I believe Alexander Stephens made a case for secession based on Jefferson's opinions about states and local governments being the first word before the central government - which is the same Jeffersonian reasoning Calhoun used for his nullification theory. Stephens' position put him firmly in opposition to Davis and his supporters, many of whom felt Stephens was not suited for vice president because he did not support a confederacy. Lincoln, on the other hand, supported a strong central government and a union - the country had grown past what Jefferson was talking about. That's where he agreed with Jackson more than Jefferson. One thing the Confederacy did - and Davis explained it at GREAT length in his post-war tome - was hark back to the original organization of the country before the Supreme Court was considered the final word on what was constitutional and what was not. And, with a fast forward to Ft Sumter - Lincoln, from his view of the Constitution, said he would protect federal property and leave the states alone, and Davis, from his view of the same Constitution, said any property within the state was the state's...we have the predestination of Ft Sumter once somebody fired a shot.
 

diane

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By the way, Lincoln held exactly the same opinion as Andrew Jackson about armed disunion. The difference was that the southerners damn well believed Andy would hang 'em all. Inititially I don't think they believed Abe was a badass. They thought Abe would be a pushover and it took them four years to realize he also was dead serious.
That was the story of Lincoln's life!
 

diane

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Jefferson and the colonials technically committed treason by sticking to their cause, everyone knew that their names were out there and people involved put themselves and families at risk that sounds serious to me. They raised an Army and fought their former government, many men were hanged for it. But none wants to talk about that when it comes to people saying secession is treason, we were founded on revolution and arguably depending on your view treason.
Indeed - if you secede you had best succeed!
 
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