CW Legends and Fantasies

General Lee

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Here's one Abraham Lincoln being the freind and savior for the blacks here in America.
 

byron ed

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Here's one Abraham Lincoln being the freind and savior for the blacks here in America.
True -- it was much more than that. It was Lincoln's acts that resulted in all slaves in the Country being legally free at war's end.

What were white offers of friendship or saving to a black or native American before that? Fantasy.

btw, only blacks in America can tell us what they consider to be real in terms of Lincoln. As a white man I'd sure not be speaking for them.
 

General Lee

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True -- it was much more than that. It was Lincoln's acts that resulted in all slaves in the Country being legally free at war's end.

What were white offers of friendship or saving to a black or native American before that? Fantasy.

btw, only blacks in America can tell us what they consider to be real in terms of Lincoln. As a white man I'd sure not be speaking for them.
So your saying heritage gives people the right to speak so I have to be entirely Black to say what I said right ? And for the record Im 25% Not white so according to your heritage theory to speak for other matters I would have to have non white genes ? What is your point here ?. Well I know we all have divided opinions on this man in particular by HK Edgerton for one literally said that Lincoln was the biggest bigot of his time. That's powerful considering Lincoln was supposedly their biggest pal.
 

Jim Klag

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particular by HK Edgerton for one literally said that Lincoln was the biggest bigot of his time
HK Edgerton, the black mascot of the SCV, is as far from a paragon of the modern black man as it is possible to get. He speaks for exactly zero African American people.
 

byron ed

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So your saying heritage gives people the right to speak so I have to be entirely Black to say what I said right ? ...
Yes, you have to be black to express how blacks felt then or feel now about Lincoln

...And for the record Im 25% Not white...
Meaning you would have been suspect in your "own" Confederacy, moreso than a quatroon.

...What is your point here ?....HK Edgerton for one literally said that Lincoln was the biggest bigot of his time. That's powerful considering Lincoln was supposedly their biggest pal...
Was the young slave shown in the OP better served by Lincoln's sort of bigotry or his young Massa's sort of pal.

Whether HK Edgerton "literally" (?) said something or just plain said it, what a fool is he to claim the black experience in the CW.
 
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General Lee

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Yes, you have to be black to express how blacks felt then or feel now about Lincoln



Meaning you would have been suspect in your "own" Confederacy, moreso than a quatroon.



Was the young slave shown in the OP better served by Lincoln's sort of bigotry or his young Massa's sort of pal.

Whether HK Edgerton "literally" (?) said something or just plain said it, what a fool is he to claim the black experience in the CW.
Don't know if your trying some broken Spanish English here or what but I'm a white man 75% but still. And people support HK regardless of their color and he knows his history so I aouldnt say hes a fool. And I never said that all blacks view him this way I'm stating actually what is based on what Lincoln said himself and he said that they were inferior and was in favor of shipping them all back to Africa.
 

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several

a) the Confederates were the gallant heroes of mankind

b) the cared about their retarded brethren (which the lord in his wisdom made black)

c) those brethren (see b) loved the Confederacy (since the Lord had enlightened them)

d) without the Confederacy those brethren would have starved to death

....
 

General Lee

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It seamed like they cared enough when they all went to those UCV reunions. And Forest said of his Black men that no better Confederates had lived and they stayed and fought with him. And as for D I wouldn't say the Union was much better considering how in one case they planned to drop off the "controbands" in I'm pretty sure Chicago and the mayor wouldn't hear of it. Here is what some blacks thought "After their capture one group of white Virginia slave owners and Afro-Virginians were asked if they would take the oath of allegiance to the United States in exchange for their freedom. One free negro indignantly replied: “I can’t take no such oaf as dat. I’m a secesh nigger.” A slave from this same group, upon learning that his master had refused, proudly exclaimed, “I can’t take no oath dat Massa won’t take.” A second slave agreed: “I ain’t going out here on no dishonorable terms.” On another occasion a captured Virginia planter took the oath, but slave remained faithful to the Confederacy and refused. This slave returned to Virginia by a flag of truce boat and expressed disgust at his owner’s disloyalty: “Massa had no principles.” (Ervin L. Jordan Jr.)
 

rittmeister

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It seamed like they cared enough when they all went to those UCV reunions. And Forest said of his Black men that no better Confederates had lived and they stayed and fought with him. And as for D I wouldn't say the Union was much better considering how in one case they planned to drop off the "controbands" in I'm pretty sure Chicago and the mayor wouldn't hear of it. Here is what some blacks thought "After their capture one group of white Virginia slave owners and Afro-Virginians were asked if they would take the oath of allegiance to the United States in exchange for their freedom. One free negro indignantly replied: “I can’t take no such oaf as dat. I’m a secesh nigger.” A slave from this same group, upon learning that his master had refused, proudly exclaimed, “I can’t take no oath dat Massa won’t take.” A second slave agreed: “I ain’t going out here on no dishonorable terms.” On another occasion a captured Virginia planter took the oath, but slave remained faithful to the Confederacy and refused. This slave returned to Virginia by a flag of truce boat and expressed disgust at his owner’s disloyalty: “Massa had no principles.” (Ervin L. Jordan Jr.)
sources are like spices - without them it's all some dull soup koch_rosa.gif
 

byron ed

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...I'm stating actually what is based on what Lincoln said himself and he said that they were inferior and was in favor of shipping them all back to Africa.
But instead he acted to free all black slaves and elevate them all to citizen status.

Is there some disconnect here not to understand that Lincoln was in fact a tremendous hero to enslaved blacks and for good reason. Whatever racist thoughts Lincoln held, common to most white men in the Antebellum, he did not allow that to affect his actions as President.

So of course its no legend or fantasy that Lincoln was one of the best things ever to happen to enslaved blacks. It's not like there's anything to doubt.

HK is a fool, blind to his own legacy.
 
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diane

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It seamed like they cared enough when they all went to those UCV reunions. And Forest said of his Black men that no better Confederates had lived and they stayed and fought with him. And as for D I wouldn't say the Union was much better considering how in one case they planned to drop off the "controbands" in I'm pretty sure Chicago and the mayor wouldn't hear of it. Here is what some blacks thought "After their capture one group of white Virginia slave owners and Afro-Virginians were asked if they would take the oath of allegiance to the United States in exchange for their freedom. One free negro indignantly replied: “I can’t take no such oaf as dat. I’m a secesh nigger.” A slave from this same group, upon learning that his master had refused, proudly exclaimed, “I can’t take no oath dat Massa won’t take.” A second slave agreed: “I ain’t going out here on no dishonorable terms.” On another occasion a captured Virginia planter took the oath, but slave remained faithful to the Confederacy and refused. This slave returned to Virginia by a flag of truce boat and expressed disgust at his owner’s disloyalty: “Massa had no principles.” (Ervin L. Jordan Jr.)
Just a word on Forrest! He said that at his surrender, mainly poking at the Union soldiers accepting his surrender. There were about half a dozen who did serve with Forrest's escort - as mentioned elsewhere, Forrest offered these men freedom in exchange for loyalty but retained their families. George Dance and Burl Buchanan were two who attended the last reunion of Forrest's Escort in Lynchburg, TN. Their pensions reflect their status as a cook and a teamster respectively, not as soldiers. But they were certainly used as soldiers. When Forrest needed numbers everybody went to the fight from cook to general. Many Union reports noted blacks in Forrest's troops. Forrest ran a uniquely integrated outfit with his escort, each man hand picked by him, but, as with a lot of things about Forrest, it was an exception to the rule.
 

byron ed

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...After their capture one group of white Virginia slave owners and Afro-Virginians were asked if they would take the oath of allegiance to the United States in exchange for their freedom. One free negro indignantly replied: “I can’t take no such oaf as dat. I’m a secesh nigger.” A slave from this same group, upon learning that his master had refused, proudly exclaimed, “I can’t take no oath dat Massa won’t take.” A second slave agreed: “I ain’t going out here on no dishonorable terms.” On another occasion a captured Virginia planter took the oath, but slave remained faithful to the Confederacy and refused. This slave returned to Virginia by a flag of truce boat and expressed disgust at his owner’s disloyalty: “Massa had no principles.” (Ervin L. Jordan Jr.)
Well we can wipe these stories with tissue from the get-go. Slaves were not required to take the oath of allegiance to the United States in exchange for their freedom. For that glaring error, there's no reason to suppose that anything else told in the stories is valid either.

Respect us at least, most here have a working knowledge of basic history and recognize Lost Cause tripe when we see it.*




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* Look, it's not like we don't understand why some want it to be that there were "many" blacks that were "loyal" (meaning interested in self-preservation) to the Confederacy: The gig is that if the idea can be sold, it enables selling that the War wasn't over slavery to begin with ("because, see, even black slaves were loyal to the Confederacy!"). Why is that important to sell? Because in turn it would mean that the Confederacy was based some other, more noble cause (almost anything will serve; tariffs, invasion, return to the principles of the founders etc. etc. etc.).

Insult to injury-- the attempt to orchestrate history is to disrespect the actual Confederates (who can't represent themselves) who typically had no problem admitting that the war was over slavery. They would consider having citizenship in the United States to be treasonous, btw. Not to mention that public display of the Confederate jack is clearly disrespecting General Lee's preference that his former army's battle flag not be paraded after the war. So anymore Lost Cause is not about honoring dead soldiers, it's about attempting to maintain social superiority in an increasingly diverse society. We reject it, as most Southerners today do.
 
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rittmeister

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Well we can wipe these stories with tissue from the get-go. Slaves were not required to take the oath of allegiance to the United States in exchange for their freedom. For that glaring error, there's no reason to suppose that anything else told in the stories is valid either.

Respect us at least, most here have a working knowledge of basic history and recognize Lost Cause tripe when we see it.*




- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
* Look, it's not like we don't understand why some want it to be that there were "many" blacks that were "loyal" (meaning interested in self-preservation) to the Confederacy: The gig is that if that can be sold, it enables selling that the War wasn't over slavery to begin with ("because, see, even black slaves were loyal to the Confederacy!"). Why is that important to sell? Because in turn it would means that the Confederacy was based some more noble cause (almost anything will serve; tariffs, invasion, return to the principles of the founders etc. etc. etc.).

Insult to injury-- that attempt to orchestrate history is to disrespect the actual Confederates (who can't represent themselves) who typically had no problem admitting that the war was over slavery. They would consider continuing to hold citizenship in the United States to be treasonous. Not to mention that parading the Confederate jack is clearly disrespecting General Lee's specific request that his army's battle flag not be paraded after the war.
is there a reason why you put a text longer than your 'main text' and in smaller font below that line? if yes, please explain - especially as there is nothing that couldn't be in your main post. nee_rosa.gif
 

byron ed

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is there a reason why you put a text longer than your 'main text' and in smaller font below that line? if yes, please explain - especially as there is nothing that couldn't be in your main post. View attachment 3596
imho if somebody can't get their main point across in a few sentences the point itself becomes suspect.

I footnote because some here are more into thinking than spouting, so providing some background may be of interest. I offer that no one need encumber themselves by reading the small type. Were I to put that stuff in the main message it soon is perceived as some kind of effete lecture, the main point lost.
 

rittmeister

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imho if somebody can't get their main point across in a few sentences the point itself becomes suspect.

I footnote because some here are more into thinking than spouting, so providing some background may be of interest. I offer that no one need encumber themselves by reading the small type. Were I to put that stuff in the main message it soon is perceived as some kind of effete lecture, the main point lost.
you were saying?
 
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