Could slavery had ended without War?

[jgoodguy]

when no Confederate flag flew on a slave ship

The Confederate Battle Flag flew over the Army of Northern Virginia on its slave catching expedition to Pennsylvania and the Shenandoah valley.

 

[byron ed]

...many want to pretend it was all the south and the Confederacy when no Confederate flag flew on a slave ship...

...no need to pretend. In that decades-earlier time before secession Northern states were involved in slavery, hadn't corrected themselves as yet.

...No flag flew during the slave revolt of 1811 which was put down but not by the oppressive Confederacy the most on here want to say it was...

Nobody here wants to say that, and nobody has. Slave importation was illegal by 1811, and most of the Northern states, and all of those states formed from the Northwest territory, were free of slavery. Yet slave uprisings were illegal in the Country, as they still were when John Brown initiated his slave uprising.

...There were even laws up north in some states on how long a slave or black people could stay in the state without facing a punishment...

Yup. Black laws in some Northern states were awful, which nobody here has ever denied. Still, meh, slavery in the Northern tier was illegal decades before secession.

...Lincoln himself said that he didn't believe in the political and social equality of the white and black races so why would he send thousands to die for a group he thought so inferier ?

He clearly said he'd do that to win the war and save the Union. High School history text. It was a war tactic.

Now that you've brought up Lincoln, and thanks for that, he clearly made it known early on that he would not allow his personal aversion to slavery to enter his decisions, as he considered himself elected at the behest of all the people. He had clearly stated that he would have allowed slavery to remain as it was, or that he would have allowed slavery in some places and not others if that's what it took to save the Union. High School history text.

It's almost as if Lost Cause (Lost Cause Lite anymore) intentionally blinds itself, as if Lincoln was ever all one thing or all another thing -- as if Lee or Davis were ever all one thing or all another thing, as if anybody at the time was ever all one thing or all another thing. oops. Lincoln adapted to allow negro citizenship. Lee adapted to once again engage the Union -- discouraging the use of his army's battle flag ever again, however you've chosen to honor that.

 

[General Lee]

So what? The Confederate Battle Flag flew never flew on a naval vessel, the Confederate naval ensign never flew over a commercial ship. There simply was no opportunity for a Confederate flag to fly over a ship.

Since 1808 no US-flagged ship could import slaves. During the time the US colonies were part of Great Britain, no US flag vessels existed. During the Revolution, the slave trade was halted. So what exactly is your point?

I do have this incident report. It sounds like Southern slave owners were willing to break US and International laws to bring slaves in. It is not a long stretch to see them going to war to keep slaves.

Clotilda (slave ship) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As the slaves were being loaded, Foster saw two steamers off the port and, fearing capture, ordered the crew to leave immediately, although only 110 slaves had been secured on board, leaving behind the last 15. They saw a man o' war during the ocean passage, but were saved when a squall came up and they outran the ship,[8] reaching Abaco lighthouse at the Bahama banks by June 30.[9] As they neared the United States, they disguised the schooner by taking down the "squaresail yards and the fore topmast", hoping to pass as a "coaster" carrying slaves within the US in the domestic coastal trade.[8]​

​

Foster anchored Clotilda on July 9 off Point of Pines in Grand Bay, Mississippi, near the Alabama border. He traveled overland by horse and buggy to Mobile to meet with Meaher. Fearful of criminal charges, Captain Foster brought the schooner into the Port of Mobile at night and had it towed up the Spanish River to the Alabama River at Twelve Mile Island. He transferred the slaves to a river steamboat, then burned Clotilda "to the water's edge" before sinking it.[8] He paid off the crew and told them to return North.[8]​

​

The African slaves were mostly distributed to the financial backers of the Clotilda venture, with Timothy Meaher retaining 30 slaves on his property north of Mobile,[1] including Cudjo (aka Cudjoe) Lewis, known as Kossoula or Kazoola. Despite the racial hierarchy of the Deep South, the Africans from Clotilda could not be legally registered as slaves because they were smuggled in; however, they were treated as chattel.[1] Some of the captives were sold farther away, including Redoshi (later known also as Sally Smith) and a man later known as William or Billy, who were sold to Washington Smith, a planter in Dallas County, Alabama. They later married and had a daughter.[4]​

​

In 1861, the federal government prosecuted Meaher and Foster in Mobile for illegal slave importation, but the case was dismissed for lack of evidence from the ship or its manifest, and perhaps because of the outbreak of the Civil War.​

Well if the CSS Virginia that ravaged the navy ain't a ship then I don't know what is. But it seams to me they did have time for ships especially when Lincoln called for an emergency meeting regarding the ship.

 

[jgoodguy]

Well if the CSS Virginia that ravaged the navy ain't a ship then I don't know what is. But it seams to me they did have time for ships especially when Lincoln called for an emergency meeting regarding the ship.

The CSS Virginia would have sunk on the ocean.

 

[byron ed]

Well if the CSS Virginia that ravaged the navy ain't a ship then I don't know what is. But it seams to me they did have time for ships especially when Lincoln called for an emergency meeting regarding the ship.

?? The CSS Virginia was a Confederate ship, and it ravaged the U.S. Navy, so of course how appropriate that Lincoln would call for meetings to address the situation. In other words, no duplicity or dishonesty on the part of Lincoln or the United States regarding simple military expediency.

More to the point, I can't find that anyone here has denied that the CSS Virginia was a ship (how odd a claim that would be). Other than being an official vessel of a nation founded on slavery I'm not finding that anyone attempted to connect the CSS Virginia with the slave trade. What's going on?

 

[General Lee]

?? The CSS Virginia was a Confederate ship, and it ravaged the U.S. Navy, so of course how appropriate that Lincoln would call for meetings to address the situation. In other words, no duplicity or dishonesty on the part of Lincoln or the United States regarding simple military expediency.

More to the point, I can't find that anyone here has denied that the CSS Virginia was a ship (how odd a claim that would be). Other than being an official vessel of a nation founded on slavery I'm not finding that anyone attempted to connect the CSS Virginia with the slave trade. What's going on?

Well when I mentioned slave trade the response I got was they didn't have time to put flags on ships or something along those lines so I mentioned that ship.

 

[Jim Klag]

Well if the CSS Virginia that ravaged the navy ain't a ship then I don't know what is. But it seams to me they did have time for ships especially when Lincoln called for an emergency meeting regarding the ship.

I am not singling out @General Lee , but what does this have to do with ending slavery without a war? We have veered way off topic in this thread. Can everybody please go back to answering the question in the OP? Could slavery have ended without a war? Thank you one and all.

 

[jgoodguy]

I am not singling out @General Lee , but what does this have to do with ending slavery without a war? We have veered way off topic in this thread. Can everybody please go back to answering the question in the OP? Could slavery have ended without a war? Thank you one and all.

Lets

 

[byron ed]

I am not singling out ...[poster] General Lee...but what does this have to do with ending slavery without a war? We have veered way off topic in this thread...

To note the difference between this and the "other" forum, where nearly anything that even vaguely promotes Confederate prevail, no matter how far off-topic, no matter how much a soundbite, no matter a mere truism, will not only be accepted but will have its way forward cleared by the mods.

 

[jgoodguy]

Back on topic, Yes Slavery in the US could have ended without a war. Anything is possible. The question is when and how.

It could have been in 10 years or 100.
It could have ended by the economic collapse of the price of cotton due to overproduction, by the social unrest of poor white southerners wanting jobs, a charismatic politician, increasing slave unrest, something unknown at the time, or a combination.