Confederate Statues Are Going Away!!!

5fish

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There have been confederate statues being vandalized during these protests...

LINK: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...robert-e-lee-removed-other-states/3144226001/

The statue of Robert E. Lee has towered over Richmond for more than 100 years. In recent days, though, it's been conveying a different message - words like "Black lives matter" are covering its stone pedestal.

SNIP...

Demonstrators spray painted the Lee statue and the others of J.E.B. Stuart, Jefferson Davis, Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson and Matthew Fontaine Maury. They wanted to see them come down after years of the monuments being protected by state law, despite being "racist symbols of oppression and inequality," as Richmond Mayor Levar Stoney put it.

SNIP... change is coming ...

Among the locations where mayors, protesters and even groups dedicated to Confederate history have taken down statues or announced plans:
  • In Montgomery, Alabama, on Monday, another statue of Lee was toppled in front of its namesake high school. Cheers went up among a small crowd gathered to watch the fallen general as cars circled the area and honked.
  • In Birmingham, Alabama, Mayor Randall Woodfin ordered workers to take down a 50-foot-tall Confederate obelisk on Monday night after a group of protesters failed to knock it down. The night before, the group dismantled the brass cast of Charles Linn, a captain in the Confederate Navy, from its base.
  • The city of Mobile, Alabama, removed a bronze figure of Admiral Raphael Semmes early Friday, without making any public announcement. Semmes was a Confederate commerce raider, sinking Union-allied ships during the Civil War, and the statue had become a flashpoint in the city.
  • Indianapolis Mayor Joe Hogsett announced Thursday that a monument dedicated to Confederate soldiers who died at a Union prison camp in the city will be removed from a park.
  • A statue outside the Tennessee State Capitol of Edward Carmack, a controversial former lawmaker and newspaper publisher who espoused racist views, was torn down Saturday.
  • The United Daughters of the Confederacy removed a statue of a soldier gazing south in Alexandria, Virginia, on Tuesday.
  • The Arkansas division of the United Daughters of the Confederacy also announced that a Confederate soldier monument in Bentonville will be removed from the downtown square and relocated to a private park.
Here an NPR report about the LEE's statue going away in Richmond...

LINK: https://www.npr.org/2020/06/04/869519175/massive-robert-e-lee-statue-in-richmond-va-will-be-removed

Even the Belgians are demanding and are in the statue removing mood...

link: https://www.npr.org/sections/live-u...r8E3JHFf6-fcDb_zSJQTfw6bE-u-aQ3gnKCYGXRkdWTX0
 
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jgoodguy

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5fish said:
There have been confederate statues being vandalized during these protests...

LINK: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...robert-e-lee-removed-other-states/3144226001/

The statue of Robert E. Lee has towered over Richmond for more than 100 years. In recent days, though, it's been conveying a different message - words like "Black lives matter" are covering its stone pedestal.

SNIP...

Demonstrators spray painted the Lee statue and the others of J.E.B. Stuart, Jefferson Davis, Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson and Matthew Fontaine Maury. They wanted to see them come down after years of the monuments being protected by state law, despite being "racist symbols of oppression and inequality," as Richmond Mayor Levar Stoney put it.

SNIP... change is coming ...

Among the locations where mayors, protesters and even groups dedicated to Confederate history have taken down statues or announced plans:
  • In Montgomery, Alabama, on Monday, another statue of Lee was toppled in front of its namesake high school. Cheers went up among a small crowd gathered to watch the fallen general as cars circled the area and honked.
  • In Birmingham, Alabama, Mayor Randall Woodfin ordered workers to take down a 50-foot-tall Confederate obelisk on Monday night after a group of protesters failed to knock it down. The night before, the group dismantled the brass cast of Charles Linn, a captain in the Confederate Navy, from its base.
  • The city of Mobile, Alabama, removed a bronze figure of Admiral Raphael Semmes early Friday, without making any public announcement. Semmes was a Confederate commerce raider, sinking Union-allied ships during the Civil War, and the statue had become a flashpoint in the city.
  • Indianapolis Mayor Joe Hogsett announced Thursday that a monument dedicated to Confederate soldiers who died at a Union prison camp in the city will be removed from a park.
  • A statue outside the Tennessee State Capitol of Edward Carmack, a controversial former lawmaker and newspaper publisher who espoused racist views, was torn down Saturday.
  • The United Daughters of the Confederacy removed a statue of a soldier gazing south in Alexandria, Virginia, on Tuesday.
  • The Arkansas division of the United Daughters of the Confederacy also announced that a Confederate soldier monument in Bentonville will be removed from the downtown square and relocated to a private park.
Here an NPR report about the LEE's statue going away in Richmond...

LINK: https://www.npr.org/2020/06/04/869519175/massive-robert-e-lee-statue-in-richmond-va-will-be-removed

Even the Belgians are demanding are in the statue removing mood...

link: https://www.npr.org/sections/live-u...r8E3JHFf6-fcDb_zSJQTfw6bE-u-aQ3gnKCYGXRkdWTX0
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IMHO A side effect of the Chronovirus is that it upset Social Norm resulting in the riots, which also IMHO any sort of flashpoint would have set off, which upset more Social Norms and the folks formerly in charge had other things to worry about. There is political fall out too, the GOP looks to be in a fight for survival in the upcoming elections. Where there once was monolithic white support, the winners in the fall may be the ones attracting the black vote or at least keeping it from their opponents by concessions.
 
Sgt. Tyree

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I don't have a dog in this fight anymore. If they stay, they stay, and if they don't, they don't. I did not always feel that way but I can't invest emotional capitol in this anymore.

I believe this country could implode and balkanize along regional lines someday. Maybe sooner than anyone would think possible. Rome did. Yugoslavia did. Do we think the United States in too great for that?

I've heard the pro-monumnet arguments about not erasing history and I've heard the counter anti-monument arguments also. I like to think that both sides "have a point, up to a point" so to speak. But if a national implosion does happen, I suspect people with both viewpoints on monuments may look back and see the monument argument as tinkering on the margins.
 
jgoodguy

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Sgt. Tyree said:
believe this country could implode and balkanize along regional lines someday. Maybe sooner than anyone would think possible. Rome did. Yugoslavia did. Do we think the United States in too great for that?
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Someday the sun will expand to the Earth's orbit and vaporize it.
 
jgoodguy

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Sgt. Tyree said:
I've heard the pro-monumnet arguments about not erasing history and I've heard the counter anti-monument arguments also. I like to think that both sides "have a point, up to a point" so to speak. But if a national implosion does happen, I suspect people with both viewpoints on monuments may look back and see the monument argument as tinkering on the margins.
Click to expand...
The Coronavirus has caused a social disruption. All bets are off on the outcome. Relating to CSA monuments, they have long depended on governmental and community enforcement of norms. They are now gone. The demonstrations have overwhelmed State governments that wished to preserved monuments weakened by the virus death tolls, distraction, shutdowns and disruption of society. Politics have fundamentally changed too. GOP officials fear loss in the upcoming election and are also distracted.

No arguments at all, just the sociology and psychology of human nature.

Social disruption is a term used in sociology to describe the alteration, dysfunction or breakdown of social life, often in a community setting. Social disruption implies a radical transformation, in which the old certainties of modern society are falling away and something quite new is emerging.[1] Social disruption might be caused through natural disasters, massive human displacements, rapid economic, technological and demographic change but also due to controversial policy-making.​
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jgoodguy

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Sgt. Tyree said:
I can't figure out if your retort means you think I made a good response or a poor one.
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I did not judge your post, I just commented that 'someday' is a bit vague.
 
Sgt. Tyree

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jgoodguy said:
I did not judge your post, I just commented that 'someday' is a bit vague.
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Indeed it is. But I'm not a prophet - just a man with an expectation or perhaps a suspicion. I believe my suspicion is reasonable based on observations of history and current events. So "someday" is the best that I can do.

But the point of all that was that I believe future generations will look back on the monument issue and think that there were bigger problems and things to be concerned about. If the monuments stay up, all may still not work out the way traditionalists and conservatives think best. And if the monuments come down, all may still not work out the way progressives and liberals think best.

That's all I meant.
 
jgoodguy

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Kirk's Raider's said:
Yugoslavia may not be such a bad analogy. Yugoslavia did break up and yes lots of people died and plenty of rape and mayhem . On the other hand post Yugoslavia begat new nations that seem to of done reasonably well and they haven't fought with each other and they do trade with each other.
So maybe after a vicious civil war America might not be so bad off .
Kirk's Raiders
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The first thing about a vicious civil war is something to fight about.
 
5fish

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Kirk's Raider's said:
The French novel " The Valley of the Saints" about mass immigration to Europe became reality.
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This is one of the great hand books of the white supremacist movement...

Kirk's Raider's said:
The movie Soylant Green showed mass homelessness
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I remember going to see this movie with my big brother as a kid. They movie was more about the earth was dying so society had to supplement our food supply with humans... the big social ill in the movie of homelessness could have gone away with a UBI and building more public or section 8 housing... Note: if you did not read dystopian novels you watched dystopian movies...
 
jgoodguy

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5fish said:
We are not to that point and never will be... If you notice in the west separation movement are about money and the blue states have the money... Look into it, in Spain and Italy and even Scotland all were about money. At the peek of the separation movement in Scotland they felt rich because of the oil money coming in and did not want to share along with a few age old grievances...
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It is about the money.

When potential rebels stop watching TV, shopping Walmart, stay away from Amazon, leave Facebook alone, stop blogging and start living on the grid in the woods, then and only then will there be a civil war.
 
Matt McKeon

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