Capitalism without competence and feudalism without nobility...

[TomEvans]

We have more than crony capitalism, we have state capture...

And who rules the state, if not the political PUPPETS that Crony Capitalists CHOOSE as monetary investments, by buying elections of all-powerful officials?

In the beginning, they were the top 6% who held the vote, among a population of 3.5 million, in an international union of de jure popularly-sovereign nations, where voters had de facto national authority.

But by 1860, franchise had risen to 44% among a population of 31.4 million; so clearly they had a vested interest in shifting de facto power to the FEDERAL government officials.

THAT'S what the whole 1861 self-coup was about: "GREED IS GOOD..." and UNLIMITED POWER!

That's what created the insane wealth-gap-- NOT "free trade shenanigans", as economic and political illiterates claim, who nearly destroyed the entire damn WORLD in their sophistry.

And that's another reason why it must be exposed: not only to FREE the world from their tyranny of deception, and restore supreme power to consensual government among equals in each de jure sovereign nation; but to save it from complete ANNIHILATION by nuclear WMD's.

 

[TomEvans]

You are saying every president since Lincoln has been running a junta for 160 years... You have a conspiracy theory... You know you are the only person who believes this self-coup...

Okay, let's go with that: let's say it's a conspiracy-theory, to determine falsifiability of that hypothesis.

Explain, then, why the 1783 Treaty of Paris recognized 13 free, sovereign and independent states; while the US government claims that they NEVER WERE, as it basis of claiming to be their political superior from 1776 onward?

Lincoln claimed (and Congress concurred) that "oh, they weren't free, sovereign and independent from one another, or the UNION"; which of course is nonsensical.

"Free, sovereign, and independent states" refers to political entities with supreme, self-governing authority, meaning they can manage their internal affairs and conduct foreign relations without external control, as declared by the U.S. colonies, signifying they are fully autonomous nations with powers to make treaties, wage war, and establish commerce. It's about ultimate authority (sovereignty) over territory and people, freedom from foreign rule (independence), and the right to self-govern (freedom).

So the hypothesis fails: the American Revolution established THIRTEEN de jure sovereign nations; which busts the US government's fairy-tale myth of their having formed a national union in 1776 which was their political superior, happily ever after.

Trees do fall in the woods, and you heard it...

Yes, it made the sound of one hand clapping.

 

[5fish]

Okay, let's go with that: let's say it's a conspiracy-theory, to determine falsifiability of that hypothesis.

Explain, then, why the 1783 Treaty of Paris recognized 13 free, sovereign and independent states; while the US government claims that they NEVER WERE, as it basis of claiming to be their political superior from 1776 onward?

Lincoln claimed (and Congress concurred) that "oh, they weren't free, sovereign and independent from one another, or the UNION"; which of course is nonsensical.

"Free, sovereign, and independent states" refers to political entities with supreme, self-governing authority, meaning they can manage their internal affairs and conduct foreign relations without external control, as declared by the U.S. colonies, signifying they are fully autonomous nations with powers to make treaties, wage war, and establish commerce. It's about ultimate authority (sovereignty) over territory and people, freedom from foreign rule (independence), and the right to self-govern (freedom).

So the hypothesis fails: the American Revolution established THIRTEEN de jure sovereign nations; which busts the US government's fairy-tale myth of their having formed a national union in 1776 which was their political superior, happily ever after.

ALL ignores some simple truths... You ignore change... You ignore the loss of sovereignty, you ignore the founding of the Constitution, you ignore the Civil War, you ignore our court cases that settle the question of perpetual union... You ignore the present facts on the ground that we live in... You ignore that the winners of the Civil War get the spoils and make the rules... You ignore that Lincoln was willing to step down if he lost the election. You ignore that his party lost the midterms. You ignore that he was replaced by a guy who was too incompetent to pull off or continue any coup{Andrew Johnson had no power but the veto)... Even if it started as you describe, you ignore all that came afterwards that changed and redefined our nation... You had a good start, but lost the race... You know, repeating oneself does not make it true... I challenge you to respond without repeating yourself... find a new path, new words, new arguments...

 

[TomEvans]

ALL ignores some simple truths... You ignore change... You ignore the loss of sovereignty, you ignore the founding of the Constitution, you ignore the Civil War, you ignore our court cases that settle the question of perpetual union... You ignore the present facts on the ground that we live in... You ignore that the winners of the Civil War get the spoils and make the rules... You ignore that Lincoln was willing to step down if he lost the election. You ignore that his party lost the midterms. You ignore that he was replaced by a guy who was too incompetent to pull off or continue any coup{Andrew Johnson had no power but the veto)...

Totally wrong.

YOU continually ignore my statements of FACT; that:

1. THE US GOVERNMENT NEVER CLAIMED that sovereignty was LOST by the 13 states. On the contrary:

2. it claims that the states NEVER HAD IT TO BEGIN WITH.

Meanwhile you admit that they WERE free, sovereign and independent states; and so therefore the US government's argument FAILS by your own admission-- since the states CANT LOSE, WHAT THEY SUPPOSEDLY NEVER HAD!

Even if it started as you describe, you ignore all that came afterwards that changed and redefined our nation...

I have EXPRESSLY addressed that matter as, legally forming ONLY a simple DE FACTO nation under SELF-COUP.

And I EXPLAINED that it CANNOT become de jure by such a self-coup, under the international law hierarchy.

The Appomattox matter was purely de facto, not de jure; since the entire matter simply DENIED free independent sovereignty that had existed in 1783, and so could not CHANGE what it claimed NEVER EXISTED.

If you are incapable of understanding this simplest of logic, then it's not my responsibility to convince you. .

 

[5fish]

Meanwhile you admit that they WERE free, sovereign and independent states; and so therefore the US government's argument FAILS by your own admission-- since the states CANT LOSE, WHAT THEY SUPPOSEDLY NEVER HAD!

Hopeless... I explain and tell the truth to you, and you restate the same position without any novelty... I am starting to believe I am talking to an AI machine...

 

[5fish]

And I EXPLAINED that it CANNOT become de jure by such a self-coup, under the international law hierarchy.

You need to drop the self coup, too many holes in it... You cannot explain in detail which laws, executive orders, or practices support your debunking claim of a self-coup...

 

[TomEvans]

You need to drop the self coup, too many holes in it... You cannot explain in detail which laws, executive orders, or practices support your debunking claim of a self-coup...

The 1783 Treaty of Paris expressly recognizing each state by name as free, sovereign and independent, and treating with them AS such; will do quite nicely in disproving the US government's claim that they were NEVER such, on which its claim of free, sovereign and independent statehood DEPENDS..... so you can stow the Constitutional arguments.

 

[TomEvans]

Hopeless... I explain and tell the truth to you,

No, the truth is what actually HAPPENED--- specifically, the 1783 Treaty of Paris expressly recognizing 13 free, sovereign and independent states BY NAME, and treating with them as such....

...and NOT recognizing the United States a SINGLE free, sovereign and independent STATE, which did NOT happen.

EVER.

and you restate the same position without any novelty...

As John Adams said, "Facts are stubborn things;" so as long as you continue to state falsehoods, I will continue to redress them WITH facts.

 

[5fish]

1. THE US GOVERNMENT NEVER CLAIMED that sovereignty was LOST by the 13 states. On the contrary:

This is meaningless and nonsense... the courts have with perpetual union...

 

[5fish]

sovereign and independent states;

No, they were for a short time a non-recognized de facto state... It does not make them a nation state,,,

 

[5fish]

and NOT recognizing the United States a

Read the treaty, the United States was mentioned... and was with it...

 

[TomEvans]

Read the treaty, the United States was mentioned... and was with it...

As 13 free, sovereign and independent states... which were ALSO mentioned.
That means an INTERNATIONAL union, like the UN or the EU-- all ignorance to the contrary notwithstanding.

 

[TomEvans]

No, they were for a short time a non-recognized de facto state... It does not make them a nation state,,,

Nice to know your rules for your own little world.
But this is Earth, where free sovereign and independent states are SUPREME over their unions.

 

[TomEvans]

This is meaningless and nonsense... the courts have with perpetual union...

The Courts claimed that the states were NEVER individually free, sovereign and independent...
but the Courts have no sovereign authority over free, sovereign and independent states.

 

[5fish]

an INTERNATIONAL union, like the UN or the EU-

This type of concept did not exist in the 1770s... this is called bringing the present back into the past... presentism

The Courts have no sovereign authority over free, sovereign, and independent states.

Silly bear again... The Courts of the United States have authority over the states and the federal government, and it is their purpose to enforce the founding documents and laws of the United States... They have the final say on what has and does not have sovereignty and what sovereignty means...

But this is Earth, where free sovereign and independent states are SUPREME over their unions.

Silly bear... nice to know you have fantasies... Never Supreme over them, but may be allowed to leave them always at a cost...