Black Confederates

[General Lee]

This will be no doubt an interesting debate and I will introduce evidence like quotes or cite from other sources rather than putting everything into a large essay on here but I will first state what I think and a quote then we'll see where the tide takes us. First what is a Black Confederate ? to me it's commonly considered a soldier or someone of color who preformed a military function or service. Now this is where it gets complicated its when in many cases Black men in roles such as a cook or teamster end up fighting in accounts I've read but knowing how many did that is the hard part. Then there were people who were known as body servants who would accompany a master or family member and end up fighting as well. Then there were indeed Black men recruited to fight or groups of them who offered their services and did fight or form units or some who in accounts were in smaller groups or alone fighting. There were those who distinguished themselves like Holt Collier a Black Confederate sharpshooter from Mississippi and Horace King recognized as the Bridge builder of the Confederacy. Now for the quote: “There are at the present moment, many colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants, and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the traitors and rebels. (Fredrick Douglass)

 

[jgoodguy]

Holt Collier a Black Confederate sharpshooter from Mississippi

More known for shooting bears than men. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holt_Collier

According to an appeal to the Mississippi pension board, Mr. Collier was the only Black Confederate.

Only 199 to go.

 

[Jim Klag]

This will be no doubt an interesting debate and I will introduce evidence like quotes or cite from other sources rather than putting everything into a large essay on here but I will first state what I think and a quote then we'll see where the tide takes us. First what is a Black Confederate ? to me it's commonly considered a soldier or someone of color who preformed a military function or service. Now this is where it gets complicated its when in many cases Black men in roles such as a cook or teamster end up fighting in accounts I've read but knowing how many did that is the hard part. Then there were people who were known as body servants who would accompany a master or family member and end up fighting as well. Then there were indeed Black men recruited to fight or groups of them who offered their services and did fight or form units or some who in accounts were in smaller groups or alone fighting. There were those who distinguished themselves like Holt Collier a Black Confederate sharpshooter from Mississippi and Horace King recognized as the Bridge builder of the Confederacy. Now for the quote: “There are at the present moment, many colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants, and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the traitors and rebels. (Fredrick Douglass)

What happened to primary sources? Where is a muster roll, an OR reference or a pension list? Second-hand quotes are not acceptable evidence. There are muster rolls, casualty reports or pension lists that identify vast numbers of white soldiers and are easily accessible by anybody. If a black man was a genuine soldier, such first-hand records should be easily found just like for a white man.

 

[General Lee]

What happened to primary sources? Where is a muster roll, an OR reference or a pension list? Second-hand quotes are not acceptable evidence. There are muster rolls, casualty reports or pension lists that identify vast numbers of white soldiers and are easily accessible by anybody. If a black man was a genuine soldier, such first-hand records should be easily found just like for a white man.

Like I said I wasn't gonna compile all of it into one Essay I will put out quotes, lists of names, pensions and whatever else I can find and recall. And then we go into the definition which can be seen in different ways of what defined a Black Confederate soldier and not all were on some paper or a paper that survived especially the dual role soldier who spent time as a non combatant eventually fighting and doing both roles.

 

[jgoodguy]

What happened to primary sources? Where is a muster roll, an OR reference or a pension list? Second-hand quotes are not acceptable evidence. There are muster rolls, casualty reports or pension lists that identify vast numbers of white soldiers and are easily accessible by anybody. If a black man was a genuine soldier, such first-hand records should be easily found just like for a white man.

Good point.

 

[jgoodguy]

Like I said I wasn't gonna compile all of it into one Essay I will put out quotes, lists of names, pensions and whatever else I can find and recall. And then we go into the definition which can be seen in different ways of what defined a Black Confederate soldier and not all were on some paper or a paper that survived especially the dual role soldier who spent time as a non combatant eventually fighting and doing both roles.

It seems I have the evidence and you don't. That is not a good thing for you. As to definitions, if you want to define a black confederate as a slave cook contracted to the CSA army for the enrichment of his master, I will not object.

 

[Kirk's Raider's]

This will be no doubt an interesting debate and I will introduce evidence like quotes or cite from other sources rather than putting everything into a large essay on here but I will first state what I think and a quote then we'll see where the tide takes us. First what is a Black Confederate ? to me it's commonly considered a soldier or someone of color who preformed a military function or service. Now this is where it gets complicated its when in many cases Black men in roles such as a cook or teamster end up fighting in accounts I've read but knowing how many did that is the hard part. Then there were people who were known as body servants who would accompany a master or family member and end up fighting as well. Then there were indeed Black men recruited to fight or groups of them who offered their services and did fight or form units or some who in accounts were in smaller groups or alone fighting. There were those who distinguished themselves like Holt Collier a Black Confederate sharpshooter from Mississippi and Horace King recognized as the Bridge builder of the Confederacy. Now for the quote: “There are at the present moment, many colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants, and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the traitors and rebels. (Fredrick Douglass)

Is the whole point of the supposed exsistance of the " black Confederates" is to prove that the Confedracy was a multi racial democracy where black people had full and equal rights to black people because tens of thousands of them served in the Confedrate Army eventhough there is no proof of such?
Douglas never documented that any black man served in the Confedrate Army.
Apartheid era South Africa had black troops in the thousands but most were not from the Republic of South Africa except for 21 Battalion, Cape Coulured Corps and the South African Police Border Task Force.
Does the actual documented exsistance of black troops in the South African and South West African Territorial Force prove South Africa was a multi racial democracy?
Kirk's Raiders

 

[jgoodguy]

Is the whole point of the supposed exsistance of the " black Confederates" is to prove that the Confedracy was a multi racial democracy where black people had full and equal rights to black people because tens of thousands of them served in the Confedrate Army eventhough there is no proof of such?
Douglas never documented that any black man served in the Confedrate Army.
Apartheid era South Africa had black troops in the thousands but most were not from the Republic of South Africa except for 21 Battalion, Cape Coulured Corps and the South African Police Border Task Force.
Does the actual documented exsistance of black troops in the South African and South West African Territorial Force prove South Africa was a multi racial democracy?
Kirk's Raiders

Let us stick with the US of the 1860s, please.
I do not want distractions and if necessary I will remove distractions.

 

[rittmeister]

Let us stick with the US of the 1860s, please.
I do not want distractions and if necessary I will remove distractions.

getting an off-topic dungeon ready for those posts

 

[Wehrkraftzersetzer]

there were Jews hiding in the Waffen SS, but hiding a black man in the CSA's armed forces seeme way difficulter

 

[General Lee]

there were Jews hiding in the Waffen SS, but hiding a black man in the CSA's armed forces seeme way difficulter

There was no need to hide because it was an integrated Army. Here are some quotes fist and I'll get to some other evidence later. "After their capture one group of white Virginia slave owners and Afro-Virginians were asked if they would take the oath of allegiance to the United States in exchange for their freedom. One free negro indignantly replied: “I can’t take no such oaf as dat. I’m a secesh nigger.” A slave from this same group, upon learning that his master had refused, proudly exclaimed, “I can’t take no oath dat Massa won’t take.” A second slave agreed: “I ain’t going out here on no dishonorable terms.” On another occasion a captured Virginia planter took the oath, but slave remained faithful to the Confederacy and refused. This slave returned to Virginia by a flag of truce boat and expressed disgust at his owner’s disloyalty: “Massa had no principles.” (Ervin L. Jordan Jr.)

 

[General Lee]

Is the whole point of the supposed exsistance of the " black Confederates" is to prove that the Confedracy was a multi racial democracy where black people had full and equal rights to black people because tens of thousands of them served in the Confedrate Army eventhough there is no proof of such?
Douglas never documented that any black man served in the Confedrate Army.
Apartheid era South Africa had black troops in the thousands but most were not from the Republic of South Africa except for 21 Battalion, Cape Coulured Corps and the South African Police Border Task Force.
Does the actual documented exsistance of black troops in the South African and South West African Territorial Force prove South Africa was a multi racial democracy?
Kirk's Raiders

He didnt have to because it was a fact there is no covering up the fact that many took up arms to fight and preform other military functions and this was happening before they could serve in the Union and Douglass did warn Lincoln by saying they need to give land bounties and I think a mule or something along those lines otherwise as he put it they would take up arms for the rebels.

 

[rittmeister]

There was no need to hide because it was an integrated Army. Here are some quotes fist and I'll get to some other evidence later. "After their capture one group of white Virginia slave owners and Afro-Virginians were asked if they would take the oath of allegiance to the United States in exchange for their freedom. One free negro indignantly replied: “I can’t take no such oaf as dat. I’m a secesh nigger.” A slave from this same group, upon learning that his master had refused, proudly exclaimed, “I can’t take no oath dat Massa won’t take.” A second slave agreed: “I ain’t going out here on no dishonorable terms.” On another occasion a captured Virginia planter took the oath, but slave remained faithful to the Confederacy and refused. This slave returned to Virginia by a flag of truce boat and expressed disgust at his owner’s disloyalty: “Massa had no principles.” (Ervin L. Jordan Jr.)

you want to have a look into the confederate states army regulations as to who may become a soldier

 

[General Lee]

It seems I have the evidence and you don't. That is not a good thing for you. As to definitions, if you want to define a black confederate as a slave cook contracted to the CSA army for the enrichment of his master, I will not object.

Well hold on there is more evidence to be shared we just got started. And we all have our interpretations. And they were not all slaves either yet freedman serves in these functions and fought. I put some quotes below in my other responses.

 

[General Lee]

you want to have a look into the confederate states army regulations as to who may becaome a soldier

It may have been illegal but it did happen and units had state names mainly because they were raised by the state and they massed together into an Army here is Tennessee for instance
"Tennessee in June 1861 became the first in the South to legislate the use of free black soldiers. The governor was authorized to enroll those between the ages of fifteen and fifty, to be paid $18 a month and the same rations and clothing as white soldiers; the black men appeared in two black regiments in Memphis by September." Ervin L. Jordan, Jr.

 

[rittmeister]

"Tennessee in June 1861 became the first in the South to legislate the use of free black soldiers. The governor was authorized to enroll those between the ages of fifteen and fifty, to be paid $18 a month and the same rations and clothing as white soldiers; the black men appeared in two black regiments in Memphis by September." Ervin L. Jordan, Jr.

that's a quote. if it were to be a source you needed the where and when and to whom and where it can be veryfied by other people.

 

[General Lee]

that's a quote. if it were to be a source you needed the where and when and to whom and where it can be veryfied by other people. View attachment 3577

Yeah I said I would add quotes and Ill get to the other stuff later. And I'll look Into this one but I cited the evidence and had a name. Before you go on about oh well I won't read it without a source fine but if you think I made it up then can you prove it's wrong ? Just saying but I get the sources adding strength thing but I said before I was adding quotes and that's what I did.

 

[rittmeister]

Yeah I said I would add quotes and Ill get to the other stuff later. And I'll look Into this one but I cited the evidence and had a name. Before you go on about oh well I won't read it without a source fine but if you think I made it up then can you prove it's wrong ? Just saying but I get the sources adding strength thing but I said before I was adding quotes and that's what I did.

it's irrelevant whether i believe it, that's the way it's done and it's not my job to check what anybody else says it's my job to source what i say - and yours to source what you say. didn't you say sth about entry exams? consider it a free
propaedeutic course.


... and you better expect people to check your sources when they see them

 

[Jim Klag]

Like I said I wasn't gonna compile all of it into one Essay I will put out quotes, lists of names, pensions and whatever else I can find and recall. And then we go into the definition which can be seen in different ways of what defined a Black Confederate soldier and not all were on some paper or a paper that survived especially the dual role soldier who spent time as a non combatant eventually fighting and doing both roles.

Look. It's really simple. For Civil War soldiers there are muster rolls, paybooks, injury reports, pension lists, paroles. These documents are proof of their service. Quotes from Frederick Douglass or anyone else are not proof of service - they're not even secondary sources. Letters from Billy Yank saying he saw a black man marching with the rebels is not a source. Primary documents I listed are easy to find for thousands of soldiers enlisted in either army. Find primary source(s) showing more than a handful of black men serving as regularly enlisted, rifle carrying soldiers in regular confederate regiments. That, and only that, will be accepted as proof of black confederates.

 

[Jim Klag]

Here are samples of acceptable primary sources. They are fairly easy to research.