Battles in History...

[jgoodguy]

An interjection here on all these battles. I have never been a big fan of Wikipedia as a source of historical events. For names and dates they are good, but you'll not find much, if any, in-depth historical analysis or deep contextual explanations. These posts all seem to be straight cut/paste jobs from Wikipedia. I guarantee every one of these battles is more thoughtfully covered on a number of history sites.

True, but for many with limited time, at least they know the battle happened and its outcome.

 

[5fish]

I have never been a big fan of Wikipedia as a source of historical events.

I do use wiki and another site called Burn Pit for the highlights of the battles and I use the videos for more details of the battle as well. I am trying to introduce battles that are interesting or important to history but forgotten to most people. I hope someone pulls on the threads I have left behind and digs more into each battle. I notice I forgot to leave my links to the battle of Kosovo....

So here: http://www.burnpit.us/2011/06/battl...serbs-fight-bloody-stalemate-field-blackbirds
and here: http://www.burnpit.us/2011/06/part-ii-battle-kosovo-field
and last: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo

 

[5fish]

My German friends @rittmeister and @Wehrkraftzersetzer , I learned of this battle that goes badly for the Germans and is consider the battle that founded Hungarian nation. I learn of this battle called The Battle of Pressburg in 907AD. The more I read old history when a group of people get a great military mind among them, watch out. It seems the Hungarians had a great military mind at the time named Arpad... There is a interesting section at the wiki link about this Arpad's tactics and victories... We in the west think we have great commanders... think again...

LINK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pressburg

The Battle of Pressburg[4] (German: Schlacht von Pressburg) or Battle of Pozsony (Hungarian: Pozsonyi csata), or Battle of Bratislava (Slovak: Bitka pri Bratislave) was a three-day-long battle, fought between 4–6 July 907, during which the East Francian army, consisting mainly of Bavarian troops led by Margrave Luitpold, was annihilated by Hungarian forces

An important result of the Battle of Pressburg was the Kingdom of East Francia could not regain control over the Carolingian March of Pannonia, including the territory of the later marchia orientalis (March of Austria), lost in 900.[5]

The most significant result of the Battle of Pressburg is that the Hungarians secured the lands they gained during the Hungarian conquest of the Carpathian Basin, prevented a German invasion that jeopardized their future, and established the Kingdom of Hungary. This battle is considered one of the most significant battles in the history of Hungary,[6] and marks the conclusion of the Hungarian conquest.

Snip...

In the long run, thanks to their victory at Pressburg, the Principality of Hungary defended itself from the ultimate objective of the East Francian and Bavarian military, political and spiritual leaders: the annihilation, giving a categorical response for those foreign powers who planned to destroy this state and its people. We can say that thanks to this victory, Hungary and the Hungarians today exist as a country and nation, because, in the case of a German victory, even if they wouldn't had kept their promise, sparing the Hungarians from annihilation or expulsion, without an independent state and church, the Magyars would have had little chance to organise themselves as a Christian nation and culture, and probably they would have shared the fate of other nations or tribes which were not Christian when they had been conquered by the Carolingian and its successor, the Holy Roman Empire: the Avars, the Polabian Slavs, or the Old Prussians: disparition, or assimilation in the German or Slavic populations. The Battle of Pressburg created the possibility of an independent Hungarian state, with its own church and culture, the premise of the survival of the Hungarians until this day.

Here is a video about the it is easier to watch the video to learned the details. The Hungarians destroyed three large Bavarian and East Francia armies in days of each. The Hungarians used every tactic in the book to win this victory. The floated all their horses across the Danube river, set taps, attack in the hours before dawn, sent swimmers into the water to sink the ships on the Danude river and so on.

 

[5fish]

Here is another take on Pressburg...

In 907 AD, the united European forces gathered in the Vienna basin to eliminate the Hungarians. Grand Prince Arpad defeated the invaders and managed to keep the Carpathian Basin, szkitahun.wordpress.com said. The German army was led by Prince Luitpold, and he wanted to regain the control over Pannonia which was part of East Francia. The battle was fought between 4-6 July 907, during which the 20 000-strong Hungarian army defeated the 60 000-strong enemy.

After the battle, the Hungarian army immediately attacked Bavaria and plundered several settlements. The battle of Pressburg showed the military superiority of the Hungarian army, which was consisted of light armored and quick moving nomadic horse archers. The heavy armored and slow moving European knights could not compete with them. Thanks to this victory, Hungary could be remained an independent country and nation, and they were able to organize themselves as a Christian nation.

It good good video on the battle your learn what happens to Arpad after the victory. He suffered some personal loses...

This short video presents the battle with interesting scenes and subtitles:

Aftermath: the Bavarian's fought to the end...

After that the Hungarians crossed the river Enns, swimming with their horses (amnem equis tranant), in southern Bavaria and plundered the cities and monasteries they found on they way, occupying and burning Schliersee, Kochel, Schlehdorf, Polling, Dießen am Ammersee, Sandau, Thierhaupten, etc.[91] They crossed the Danube at Abach, heading to North, than took prisoners monks, children, girls and women, binding them with animal hair.[92] According to Aventinus they even occupied and burned Regensburg, the capital city of the Duchy of Bavaria (the city being later strengthened with huge walls wide of 2 and high of 8 meters by the new Bavarian prince Arnulf[93]), and Osterhofen. On the Hungarians way back home, the Bavarians, who wanted to take their spoils away, tried to ambush them at Lengenfeld, at the road which takes to the village, but the Magyars defeated, put them down and swept them away.

 

[Wehrkraftzersetzer]

We in the west think we have great commanders... think again.

everyone has great commanders and nutshells

to "quote" Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord:

there are 2 qualities in officers dumb vs brilliant and lazy vs laborious

which leads to 4 types of officers

dumb, lazy which can be used for anything of low priority
brilliant, laborious the backbone of any army
brilliant, lazy which must be in the general staff
dumb, laborious which should get shot at once

 

[Jim Klag]

everyone has great commanders and nutshells

to "quote" Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord:

there are 2 qualities in officers dumb vs brilliant and lazy vs laborious

which leads to 4 types of officers

dumb, lazy which can be used for anything of low priority
brilliant, laborious the backbone of any army
brilliant, lazy which must be in the general staff
dumb, laborious which should get shot at once

"Ability is of little value without opportunity, I had rather my generals be lucky than able" - Napoleon Bonaparte.

 

[O' Be Joyful]

"Ability is of little value without opportunity, I had rather my generals be lucky than able"

A little Mac quote?

 

[byron ed]

I like to bring up battles throughout history that changed the course of a war, a civilization, of mankind or relevant in history...I will pick the Battle of La Fobie... It was the death-nail to the Crusader states in the Levant...While the Battle of Hattin holds great symbolic importance as having led to the fall of Jerusalem, it was La Forbie that truly marked the collapse of Christian power in Outremer.

I'm outraged. Why was it kept secret that so many innocents died in this battle? A battle initiated to prop up a troubled regime in the guise of religious fervor. There was secret collusion with certain Crusader interests who had discouraged the invasion to begin with, their saving face while Levant civilians were being stabbed, chopped, mutilated indiscriminately.

 

[Jim Klag]

I'm outraged. Why was it kept secret that so many innocents died in this battle? A battle initiated to prop up a troubled regime in the guise of religious fervor. There was secret collusion with certain Crusader interests who had discouraged the invasion to begin with, their saving face while Levant civilians were being stabbed, chopped, mutilated indiscriminately.

Most of the really nasty stuff in history can be tied to religion or ethnic rivalry.

 

[Wehrkraftzersetzer]

Most of the really nasty stuff in history can be tied to religion or ethnic rivalry.

nope somebody using that everready vehicle

 

[5fish]

I'm outraged. Why was it kept secret that so many innocents died in this battle?

Hummm.... no a bunch of soldiers, Knights, and so on... I think you are talking about the time the Christians sack Jerusalem and killed the non-Christians... or Edessa where the Muslim killed the Christians, or Fall of Acre and the Muslim killed the Christians... if you read Crusader history you will find many moments when a city gets sacked it inhabitants suffer...

@byron ed your just being a butt hole...

that's a three hours bann for you (it's the post not the poster)

 

[Jim Klag]

@byron ed your just being a butt hole...

Excuse me? Methinks, as a minimum, an apology for infantile rudeness is in order.

 

[5fish]

Excuse me? Methinks, as a minimum, an apology for infantile rudeness is in order.

Your right, I should be impressed by @byron ed ability and creativeness to weave White Supremacy concepts into his replies. His pale mockery of right wing notions to make you feel he is with you...

 

[Jim Klag]

Your right, I should be impressed by @byron ed ability and creativeness to weave White Supremacy concepts into his replies. His pale mockery of right wing notions to make you feel he is with you...

And exactly how does that make him worthy of you calling him a "butt head"?

 

[O' Be Joyful]

And exactly how does that make him worthy of you calling him a "butt head"?

I have always enjoyed being called a butt-head and find it a sign of smart-ass pride.

 

[byron ed]

Your right, I should be impressed by [byron ed] ability and creativeness to weave W[....] S[........] concepts into his replies...

I knew there was a disconnection, but now I see the extent of the disconnection. I had thought it obvious to anyone here that I consistently reject attempts to invoke W[....] S[........]. I'm not even willing here to spell it out, since I well understand it's inflammatory nature, something I'm offering as advice, btw.

Still, that even one person can be so far-off in interpreting my messages means I have to own up to not communicating my ideas well.

So let me be clear: I consistently reject attempts to invoke W[....] S[........].

But emminently related to that, I similarly reject attempts at Moral Supremacy, like the concurrent attempt in the Truman and Hiroshima thread -- all the more disingenuous for being invoked in comfortable hindsight, and by de-valuing the plight of the multiple thousands of people who were saved by the A-bomb while up-valuing the plight of the thousands of people who were adversely affected by it. They were all victims, how dare anyone rate their relative human value.

For that matter, how dare anyone second-guess those WW2 Allied leaders who did not have option of comfortable hindsight, who with great courage and resolve stepped-up to make heart-breaking choices knowing that they would be "judged" by later generations. We can only imagine what consequences there might have been if the "Peace in the World / Can't we just all get-along" crowd held sway at the time -- both concepts, btw, that nearly everybody then and now ascribe to but wouldn't presume to own.

So let me be clear: I consistently reject attempts to invoke Moral Superiority.

 

[5fish]

The battle that effectively ended Welsh independence and to direct English rule... from wiki... one battle freedom gone forever...

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orewin_Bridge

The Battle of Orewin Bridge (also known as the Battle of Irfon Bridge) was fought between English (led by the Marcher Lords) and Welsh armies on 11 December 1282 near Builth Wells in mid-Wales. It was a decisive defeat for the Welsh because their leader, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd was killed, and this effectively ended the autonomy of Wales.

Snip... years earlier...

Llywelyn had already fought a war against Edward I of England in 1277. Edward had organised a large full-time army with which he overran all North Wales as far west as the Conwy River, and a fleet with which he captured Anglesey, depriving the Welsh of much of their grain. Llywelyn was forced to come to humiliating terms, and ceded large areas of Wales to England.
Over the five years which followed, there was continued tension between Llywelyn and Edward over various lawsuits, and increasing unrest between the Welsh people and their English administrators in the newly transferred areas. The revolt was actually begun in 1282 by Llywelyn's brother Dafydd, who had sided with Edward five years earlier but now captured Hawarden Castle and slaughtered its garrison. This was followed by uprisings in many parts of Wales, and Llywelyn declared war on Edward on behalf of all Welsh.

snip... the fight... the welsh fought well...

On 11 December, Llywelyn's army occupied a hillside north of the Irfon River near the village of Cilmeri, placed to repel any attack from the south across Orewin Bridge. The army is thought to have consisted of a few thousand spearmen and javelinmen from North Wales, with some men-at-arms from Llywelyn's own teulu (household), and some local archers from Brecon (who had betrayed their former English allies and joined Llywelyn, having been disappointed in the English failure at the Battle of Llandeilo Fawr). Altogether, the army is thought to have added up to around 7000 infantry and 160 Cavalry (Llywelyn's Teulu). Llywelyn himself was not present, having gone to speak with local leaders (possibly at Builth Castle).
A local inhabitant had told the Marchers about a ford across the Irfon two miles downstream, near its confluence with the River Wye, and they sent most of their archers across it to attack the Welsh in the flank. The Welsh army turned to face them, and the English mounted men-at-arms charged across the now undefended bridge.

Meanwhile, the English archers shot into the Welsh spear schiltrons, weakening and disorganising the troops. The English heavy cavalry then charged the rear of the army. The leaderless and demoralised Welsh were routed.

As the Welsh army fled, Llywelyn returned in haste. On the outskirts of the fighting, he was attacked and cut down by an English man-at-arms named Stephen de Frankton, an English centenar from Ellesmere, Shropshire.

Snip... later...

Llywelyn's body was not recognised until the next day (he had probably gone in secret or incognito to his meeting, and would therefore not have worn any surcoat or other heraldic device). His head was cut off, and taken to London to be exhibited. He left only an infant daughter, Gwenllian of Wales. Leadership of the Welsh fell to Dafydd, who led a guerrilla resistance for some months but was soon betrayed, captured and executed as a traitor. Edward was able to formally end the existence of an organised resistance to English rule in the Welsh regions.

Here is another take on the battle... http://www.burnpit.us/2009/12/battle-orewin-bridge-welsh-indepedence-lost

The Battle that effectively ended Welsh Independence. In 1277, Edward I Longshanks, King of England, had invaded and beaten Llywelyn ap Gruffydd, the Prince of Wales. As a result, portions of Wales came under direct rule of the English. For the next five years, English rule became more onerous, causing great unrest in the occupied areas. On Easter Day 1282, Llywelyn’s treacherous brother Dafydd (David), who had sided with Longshanks previously, reversed his loyalty and took Hawarden Castle and slaughtered its garrison. This act led to other risings throughout Wales, causing Longshanks to again raise forces and invade Wales. After occupying most of northern Wales, King Edward’s forces were not so successful. Two major battles in June (Llandelio Fawr) and November (Moel-y-don) were won by the Welsh, which caused Longshanks to recruit more forces before proceeding further. In the meantime, Prince Llywelyn continued to use his political skills to persuade wavering Welsh nobles to join his cause. He even went so far as to contact the Marcher Lords, who were English nobles established in eastern and southern Wales and enjoyed a large amount of independence from Longshanks. However, three of these Marcher Lords, Roger l’Estrange, John Giffard and Edward Mortimer, were staunchly loyal to Edward. As a result, these three nobles organized a sizeable force to oppose Llywelyn. Besides their own heavy horsemen, men-at-arms and English archers, they also received some forces from a Welsh noble who opposed Llywelyn’s uprising. The English force is thought to have comprised 5000 infantryman and 1300 heavy cavalry, moved from southern Wales in the central part of the country. They were approaching the Welsh town of Cilmeri, north of the Irfon River when they were confronted with a Welsh force occupying a hillside across the Orewin Bridge. The Welsh consisted of 7000 spearmen and javelinmen, with a few local archers and about 200 men-at-arms which were Llywelyn’s personal bodyguard. [Prince Llywelyn himself was not at the battlefield, either scouting the area or holding secret meetings with wavering local Welsh leaders.] A local Welshman loyal to Longshanks told the English commanders about a ford two miles downstream which could outflank the Welsh position. A force of English bowmen was sent across this ford to threaten the Welsh flank. Seeing the threat to their position, almost the entire Welsh army shifted position to face the bowmen, leaving the bridge undefended. This act allowed the English army to cross Orewin Bridge. The English archers then began to rain arrows down on the Welsh formations, killing a large number of the spearmen and disrupting their formations. Finally, the English heavy cavalry worked their way to the Welsh rear area and charged, causing the leaderless and demoralized Welsh to flee the field. Welsh casualties numbered about 2000 dead, with English losses probably light. Just as his army was routing, Llywelyn returned to the field. Trying to rally his men, Llywelyn was killed by an English man-at-arms named Stephen de Frankton. Because he was wearing neither armor nor a surcoat with his coat-of-arms, Llywelyn’s body was not identified until the next day. This battle effectively ended Welsh independence, though Dafydd led a guerilla resistance for the next several months. He was eventually captured in June of 1283, taken to London and condemned to death. His sentence was carried out on October 3, 1283 in the town of Shrewsbury, where Dafydd became the first prominent criminal in English law to be hanged, drawn and quartered…

Here @alexjack is a battle that cost the Welsh ... It at post #16

 

[alexjack]

Here @alexjack is a battle that cost the Welsh ... It at post #16

Ah but we didn't give up we took 'em on again in 1400 under Owain Glyndwr and fought for another 10/15 years. One of the bigger battles was fought near here at a place called Pwll Melyn (Yellow Pool) the English always used Welsh longbowmen in their armies and brought them to this fight. The Welsh rebels were lined up on the crest of a hill and the English infantry were climbing up with the Welsh archers behind them in support but when they got halfway up the hill the archers sent a cloud of arrows into them and the Welsh infantry rushed down the hill and the English broke and ran. Perhaps the man who caused the most damage to Wales dream of an eventual separate nation was Henry VIII a man of Welsh descent no less.

Owen Glendower (Owain Glyndwr), last Welsh Prince of Wales

The story of Owain Glyndwr, Prince of Wales and Medieval Welsh nationalist leader who organised a rebellion against the English king, Henry IV.

www.historic-uk.com

 

[Matt McKeon]

The Battle of Marathon. I know, I know, I'm boring.

A democratic society defeats an autocratic society. Democracy survives.

Athens win by choosing the time and place of battle. The Persian invasion force and the Athenian defenders are fighting the Athenian's battle: an open plain, but constricted in space by the sea, heavy infantry vs. heavy infantry.

The Athenian democrats manage to keep the faction of oligarchs ready to submit to the Persians under control.

Its a major land battle won without the assistance of the Spartans, the major land power in Greece.

The phalanx, thousands of armored men, brothers, friends, fathers, sons, lovers, neighbors crunch into the Persian line. The phalanx is an unwieldy formation, its solders("hoplites") are farmers, shopkeepers, artisans, but propelled by the men pushing behind, hemmed in on both sides by your comrades, you only have one place to go, straight into the man ahead of you. The screaming, amateur hoplites lose their minds in the "dancing floor of war" juiced by fear, aggression, claustrophobia to pulverize their opponents. The Persians don't have the room to use their strengths, their cavalry and archers, which had brought them victory before.

 

[Jim Klag]

The Battle of Marathon. I know, I know, I'm boring.

A democratic society defeats an autocratic society. Democracy survives.

Athens win by choosing the time and place of battle. The Persian invasion force and the Athenian defenders are fighting the Athenian's battle: an open plain, but constricted in space by the sea, heavy infantry vs. heavy infantry.

The Athenian democrats manage to keep the faction of oligarchs ready to submit to the Persians under control.

Its a major land battle won without the assistance of the Spartans, the major land power in Greece.

The phalanx, thousands of armored men, brothers, friends, fathers, sons, lovers, neighbors crunch into the Persian line. The phalanx is an unwieldy formation, its solders("hoplites") are farmers, shopkeepers, artisans, but propelled by the men pushing behind, hemmed in on both sides by your comrades, you only have one place to go, straight into the man ahead of you. The screaming, amateur hoplites lose their minds in the "dancing floor of war" juiced by fear, aggression, claustrophobia to pulverize their opponents. The Persians don't have the room to use their strengths, their cavalry and archers, which had brought them victory before.

And don't forget Salamis. Afterv Xerxes walked over the Spartans at Thermopylae the Athenian navy routed the Persians at Salamis. Talk about changing the outcome of the war!