Searching for Black Confederates by Kevin Levin

jgoodguy

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Might want to make that fact known to some posters here on this BB!

Kevin Dally
As often as I can. However, as I am unable to get a firm commitment on how black skin color a 'Black Confederate' was, what a 'Confederate' was and if they carried a rifle in anger I despair of any easy resolution.
 

Kirk's Raider's

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As often as I can. However, as I am unable to get a firm commitment on how black skin color a 'Black Confederate' was, what a 'Confederate' was and if they carried a rifle in anger I despair of any easy resolution.
Interestingly enough the South African Defense Force under Apartheid was very distinct on identifying mixed race vs African troops and putting them in different units I.e. Cape Coloured Corps for mixed race vs 21 Battalion for South African black troops.
We are supposed to believe that the Confederacy had huge numbers of integrated troops even though this conflicted with official Confederate Army Regulations.
So far no evidence that maybe even less then one hundred black men ever fired a shot in anger against the blue bellies.
Kirk's Raider's
 

Tom

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I am not sure Fremantle is all that reliable.


Please describe in a sentence or two what the premise of Levin's book is.
I'll let Levin tell us- "As this book will argue, claims that the Confederate government recruited significant numbers of black men into the army first emerged with the Confederate heritage community in the late 1970s in response to the gradual shift in popular memory of the Civil War following the civil rights movement." (p.3)
 

Tom

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Neither of them have read it either. All those who are trying to criticize it are trying to criticize a book they have never read. Pretty stupid if you ask me. It just shows none of the three of you have any idea what you're criticizing. Not a single bit of criticism in here has any credibility.
Jackleg,
At least 50 pages are available in various previews. That's more than enough to know what's going on with this book, Jackleg.
 

jgoodguy

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Jackleg,
At least 50 pages are available in various previews. That's more than enough to know what's going on with this book, Jackleg.
Then I expect a coherent discussion. I've used reviews to rebut an author.

Assuming ' claims that the Confederate government recruited significant numbers of black men into the army ' exist when did they start?

A question, if Levin is wrong, then I would expect to see ' claims that the Confederate government recruited significant numbers of black men into the army ' in period literature such as 'Confederate Veteran' but they are lacking. That in and of itself moves the timeline into the 1930s and later.

What organization other than the SCV would promote " claims that the Confederate government recruited significant numbers of black men into the army " Southern heritage Organizations such as the League of the South do not promote " claims that the Confederate government recruited significant numbers of black men into the army "

The fact that the term 'Black Confederate' was used a few times before does not substantilly rebut one of Levin's claim, but only that 'Black Confederate' was used to support " claims that the Confederate government recruited significant numbers of black men into the army ".
 

Al Mackey

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Then I expect a coherent discussion. I've used reviews to rebut an author.

Assuming ' claims that the Confederate government recruited significant numbers of black men into the army ' exist when did they start?

A question, if Levin is wrong, then I would expect to see ' claims that the Confederate government recruited significant numbers of black men into the army ' in period literature such as 'Confederate Veteran' but they are lacking. That in and of itself moves the timeline into the 1930s and later.

What organization other than the SCV would promote " claims that the Confederate government recruited significant numbers of black men into the army " Southern heritage Organizations such as the League of the South do not promote " claims that the Confederate government recruited significant numbers of black men into the army "

The fact that the term 'Black Confederate' was used a few times before does not substantilly rebut one of Levin's claim, but only that 'Black Confederate' was used to support " claims that the Confederate government recruited significant numbers of black men into the army ".
I'm into Chapter Two of the book and so far he doesn't say no one ever used the term before the 1970s.

Levin makes the point that during the extended debate over arming slaves that began in the latter part of 1864, not a single person made the point that confederate armies already had black soldiers.
 

jgoodguy

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I'm into Chapter Two of the book and so far he doesn't say no one ever used the term before the 1970s.

Levin makes the point that during the extended debate over arming slaves that began in the latter part of 1864, not a single person made the point that confederate armies already had black soldiers.
I agree.
 

Tom

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Levin: "claims to the existence of anywhere between 500 and 100,000 black Confederate soldiers"

There was a battalion (at least two companies) raised in Richmond in March and April of 1865. Two companies from hospital workers in the same city and at least one company in Mobile, Ala. That's at least five companies. And there's evidence of troops raised in other cities and states (300 in North Carolina alone). So why is 500 an outlandish claim?

(I would claim more than these, but I will limit it to those raised in the last few months of the war.)
 

jgoodguy

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Levin: "claims to the existence of anywhere between 500 and 100,000 black Confederate soldiers"

There was a battalion (at least two companies) raised in Richmond in March and April of 1865. Two companies from hospital workers in the same city and at least one company in Mobile, Ala. That's at least five companies. And there's evidence of troops raised in other cities and states (300 in North Carolina alone). So why is 500 an outlandish claim?

(I would claim more than these, but I will limit it to those raised in the last few months of the war.)
You are double counting Richmond. There were only 2 undermaned companies in total. Please document the Mobile company.
 

Tom

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You are double counting Richmond. There were only 2 undermaned companies in total.
Two companies were from the hospitals (Jackson and Winder). These were in a unit known as "Chambliss' Battalion." At least two other companies were raised by Majors Pegram and Turner. These were independent of the hospitals.

Please document the Mobile company.
They are mentioned in Mobile, 1865: Last Stand of the Confederacy by Sean Michael O'brien, but I haven't got the book with me and no preview is available online. I'll have the info tomorrow.
 

Joshism

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They are mentioned in Mobile, 1865: Last Stand of the Confederacy by Sean Michael O'brien
I wonder if they were negro units or Creole units? As has been posted on here before, quoting the ORs, the Confederates made that distinction but a modern author might not kbow that. Also, were they Confederate units or just the local militia?
 

Tom

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I wonder if they were negro units or Creole units? As has been posted on here before, quoting the ORs, the Confederates made that distinction but a modern author might not kbow that. Also, were they Confederate units or just the local militia?
I'm going by the modern definition of 'black' - a person of African descent. Others do the same when they describe the United States Colored Troops as 'black' troops.

Mr. Levin calls the USCT 'black' troops.
 

jgoodguy

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I'm going by the modern definition of 'black' - a person of African descent. Others do the same when they describe the United States Colored Troops as 'black' troops.

Mr. Levin calls the USCT 'black' troops.
OTOH if we go by CSA standards, blacks were visibly indistinguishable from slaves.
 

Viper21

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And if I disagree, what evidence supports that contention.
None. You've made it clear previously that, without a picture of a Black man in Confederate uniform, firing at a Yankee, you won't believe it. :D
 

jgoodguy

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None. You've made it clear previously that, without a picture of a Black man in Confederate uniform, firing at a Yankee, you won't believe it. :D
Not me you have to convience. It is the visitors current and future. I don't really mind a name is a Black Confederate with 20 or so footnotes explaing the term used in that context.
 

Viper21

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Not me you have to convience. It is the visitors current and future. I don't really mind a name is a Black Confederate with 20 or so footnotes explaing the term used in that context.
Not trying to be snarky but, I don't have to convince anyone. I can read, & know exactly what I'm seeing.

Attempting to convince others who refuse to accept, or admit the obvious, I don't really even consider anymore. My posts aren't trying to convince the deniers. More so, just pointing out the hypocrisy, & double standards. ie: As Tom points out, nobody has a problem when USCT's are referred to as "Black". Yet, when an example of Black man who supported the Confederacy is shown, he wasn't Black enough. o_O
 
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