Hadrian Wall or Maginot Line...

Jim Klag said:

It seems only the Maginot Line and the Berlin Wall were symbols of rapidly fading empire.

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Every wall in history has failed in the end...

Jim Klag said:

It seems only the Maginot Line and the Berlin Wall were symbols of rapidly fading empire.

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Actually as opposed to myth, it worked fairly well but then there was Belgium into which the Line did not extend. Why fight on your own soil when you can do it on someone else's soil and plan/hope to mount a defense. Zee Frenchies got back-sided, wink, by their failure to coordinate w/ the Belgians.


https://www.historynet.com/the-maginot-mentality.htm

O' Be Joyful said:

“The trouble with the Maginot Line was that it was in the wrong place,”

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IMHO the trouble with the Maginot Line was that it represented defeatism.

5fish said:

Every wall in history has failed in the end...

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Not necessarily. Most walls outlived their usefulness or were surpassed by technology. They just faded into history. The only walls that were short lived were the walls Caesar built around Alesia, the Berlin Wall and the Maginot Line. The walls Caesar built during the siege of Alesia won him the battle and helped him complete the conquest of Gaul. Most walls were built when the empires that constructed them were at their high point, not when they were in decline. You should do more research before you make blanket statements like "every wall has failed."

every wall (e.a.) will prove useless against decisive action

those who believe in walls are idiots at best

any wall / fence / earthworks will only slow down the enemy 4 a period of time
if the enemy is committed this period might be extremely short

but this period is the only time to bring in fresh troops to either stengthen the defense or (better!!) beat the enemy in a land battle just in front of that wall (e.a.)

the mentioned limites weren't real defenses the had gates galore to collect taxes, they were more "You now are entering the Roman sector" thingy

their military sence was slow them down and mass our troops (cav preferred) in massive positions from which we can hunt them down

5fish said:

Every wall in history has failed in the end...

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Yes if somebody thought it would end the danger? YES!

If it was clear their only goal was Verzögerung (delay) to buy precious reaction time they always worked well

Problem is most people believed in the save thingy (as they believe in gods, both doesn't work
(to mention George Carlin: may be just maybe the should believe in Joe Pesci)

Jim Klag said:

IMHO the trouble with the Maginot Line was that it represented defeatism.

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I think you are correct... from wiki... the French already thought they lose the next war... as they were abandoned by their allies...

After 1918, the German economy was twice as large as that of France; Germany had a population of 70 million compared to France's 40 million and the French economy was hobbled by the need to reconstruct the enormous damage of World War I, while German territory had seen little fighting. French military chiefs were dubious about their ability to win another war against Germany on its own, especially an offensive war.[15] French decision-makers knew that the victory of 1918 had been achieved because the British Empire and the United States were allies in the war and that the French would have been defeated on their own.[14] With the United States isolationist and Britain stoutly refusing to make the "continental commitment" to defend France on the same scale as in World War I, the prospects of Anglo-American assistance in another war with Germany appeared to be doubtful at best.[14] Versailles did not call for military sanctions in the event of the German military reoccupying the Rhineland or breaking Part V; while Locarno committed Britain and Italy to come to French aid in the event of a "flagrant violation" of the Rhineland's demilitarised status, without defining what a "flagrant violation" would be.[15] The British and Italian governments refused in subsequent diplomatic talks to define "flagrant violation", which led the French to place little hope in Anglo-Italian help if German military forces should reoccupy the Rhineland.[15] Given the diplomatic situation in the late 1920s, the Quai d'Orsay informed the government that French military planning should be based on a worst-case scenario that France would fight the next war against Germany without the help of Britain or the United States.

If you think about it, the Maginot line was an overreaction to a moment in time and a case of shortsightedness on the French part. Maybe not too?

Jim Klag said:

I'm not so sure of that. The Chinese empire lasted until the 20th century, 600 years after they built their wall. The Roman Empire lasted for several hundred years after Hadrian's wall was built. The walls at Constantinople lasted until the invention of cannons. The walls around ancient Athens were never breached. The Spartans tore them down after defeating Athens in a naval war. It seems only the Maginot Line and the Berlin Wall were symbols of rapidly fading empire.

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the berlin wall shouldn't even be mentioned here as it was never supossed to keep anybody out (as all the others were) - you could mention the atlantikwall, though

Jim Klag said:

Not necessarily. Most walls outlived their usefulness or were surpassed by technology. They just faded into history. The only walls that were short lived were the walls Caesar built around Alesia, the Berlin Wall and the Maginot Line. The walls Caesar built during the siege of Alesia won him the battle and helped him complete the conquest of Gaul. Most walls were built when the empires that constructed them were at their high point, not when they were in decline. You should do more research before you make blanket statements like "every wall has failed."

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i wouldn't use alesia as an example as those 'walls' weren't supossed to stay a day longer than necessary (getting vercingetorix by the balls, that is) - they were temporary fortifications (like the trenches of WW I)

rittmeister said:

i wouldn't use alesia as an example as those 'walls' weren't supossed to stay a day longer than necessary (getting vercingetorix by the balls, that is) - they were temporary fortifications (like the trenches of WW I)

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They were temporary, true. The inner wall was to keep Vercingetorix in and the outer wall was to keep Vercingetorix's pals out. Caesar was no dummy. He played those walls and the Gauls like a drum.

all are, when somebody comes with technology e.g. bigger gun or mining (under the fortification, and destroying it from there*) that wasn't there when they were built, or outsmarts the the guards

in WWI a French fortification fell for the reason that the way to few crew were all at lunch and the main back gate to supply ammo was open.
The few Germans had to search for the bigger French crew when they found them they happened to be unarmed


* by collapsing, fire, explosives ....

Wehrkraftzersetzer said:

in WWI a French fortification fell for the reason that the way to few crew were all at lunch and the main back gate to supply ammo was open.

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it was different but equally bizare - all german units involved had been driven by misplaced german artillery fire to 'advance' against the fort. leutnant radke thought it better to be taken prisoner alive than to die from friendly fire

fort douaumont, taken by some pionier vizefeldwebel kunze - of course some infantry officers stole the glory


... if german werth's verdun - die schlacht und der mythos has been translated into english i strongly advice everybody to read it

What about the West Wall - what we called the Siegried Line? Not really a wall per se, but it didn't fail until the Germans had no one left to man it. And still it slowed the Allies down a good bit in 1945.

What about the Atlantic Wall that we Americans rejoice telling the story of it conquest in one day... Called Normandy... D-Day...

rittmeister said:

you could mention the atlantikwall, though

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Although one of the most impressive engineering feats of modern times, British, American and Canadian troops breached the seemingly impregnable Nazi defences along a 80-mile stretch of French coastline at Normandy in a single day: June 6, 1944.

Wehrkraftzersetzer said:

few Germans

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rittmeister said:

german werth's

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The Hindenburg Line did not hold off the Allied forces before the Armistice...


The Siegfriedstellung (Hindenburg Line) was a German defensive position in World War I built during the winter of 1916–1917 on the Western Front from Arras to Laffaux, near Soissons on the Aisne. In 1916 the Brusilov Offensive had inflicted huge losses on the Austro-Hungarian armies in Russia and forced the German eastern armies to take over more of the Eastern Front. The declaration of war by Romania had placed additional strain on the German war economy and army. The German offensive at Verdun had failed to inflict mass casualties on the French army cheaply and Anglo-French attacks on the Western Front had inflicted serious losses on the German army during the French counter-offensive at Verdun and the joint offensive on the Somme. Construction of the Siegfriedstellung (Hindenburg Line) began in September 1916 and was intended to counter an anticipated increase in the power of Anglo-French attacks in 1917.

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A sequence of Allied offensives began with attacks by American and French armies on 26 September from Rheims to the Meuse, two British armies at Cambrai on 27 September, British, Belgian and French armies in Flanders on 28 September and on 29 September the British Fourth Army (including the US II Corps) attacked the Hindenburg Line from Holnon north to Vendhuille while the French First Army attacked the area from St. Quentin to the south. The British Third Army attacked further north and crossed the Canal du Nord at Masnières. In nine days British, French and US forces crossed the Canal du Nord, broke through the Hindenburg Line and took 36,000 prisoners and 380 guns.[101] German troops were short of food, had worn out clothes and boots and the retreat back to the Hindenburg Line had terminally undermined their morale. The Allies had attacked with overwhelming material superiority, using combined-arms tactics, with a unified operational method and achieved a high tempo.[102] On 4 October the German government requested an armistice and on 8 October the German armies were ordered to retire from the rest of the Siegfriedstellung (Hindenburg Line)

5fish said:

The Hindenburg Line did not hold off the Allied forces before the Armistice...

Hindenburg Line

The Siegfriedstellung (Hindenburg Line) was a German defensive position in World War I built during the winter of 1916–1917 on the Western Front from Arras to Laffaux, near Soissons on the Aisne. In 1916 the Brusilov Offensive had inflicted huge losses on the Austro-Hungarian armies in Russia...

military.wikia.org

The Siegfriedstellung (Hindenburg Line) was a German defensive position in World War I built during the winter of 1916–1917 on the Western Front from Arras to Laffaux, near Soissons on the Aisne. In 1916 the Brusilov Offensive had inflicted huge losses on the Austro-Hungarian armies in Russia and forced the German eastern armies to take over more of the Eastern Front. The declaration of war by Romania had placed additional strain on the German war economy and army. The German offensive at Verdun had failed to inflict mass casualties on the French army cheaply and Anglo-French attacks on the Western Front had inflicted serious losses on the German army during the French counter-offensive at Verdun and the joint offensive on the Somme. Construction of the Siegfriedstellung (Hindenburg Line) began in September 1916 and was intended to counter an anticipated increase in the power of Anglo-French attacks in 1917.

Snip...

A sequence of Allied offensives began with attacks by American and French armies on 26 September from Rheims to the Meuse, two British armies at Cambrai on 27 September, British, Belgian and French armies in Flanders on 28 September and on 29 September the British Fourth Army (including the US II Corps) attacked the Hindenburg Line from Holnon north to Vendhuille while the French First Army attacked the area from St. Quentin to the south. The British Third Army attacked further north and crossed the Canal du Nord at Masnières. In nine days British, French and US forces crossed the Canal du Nord, broke through the Hindenburg Line and took 36,000 prisoners and 380 guns.[101] German troops were short of food, had worn out clothes and boots and the retreat back to the Hindenburg Line had terminally undermined their morale. The Allies had attacked with overwhelming material superiority, using combined-arms tactics, with a unified operational method and achieved a high tempo.[102] On 4 October the German government requested an armistice and on 8 October the German armies were ordered to retire from the rest of the Siegfriedstellung (Hindenburg Line)

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There was also the WW 2 model but it started w/ a Z.

5fish said:

What about the Atlantic Wall that we Americans rejoice telling the story of it conquest in one day... Called Normandy... D-Day...



Although one of the most impressive engineering feats of modern times, British, American and Canadian troops breached the seemingly impregnable Nazi defences along a 80-mile stretch of French coastline at Normandy in a single day: June 6, 1944.

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We Americans like to brag about piercing the Atlantikwall on D-Day, but in fairness it was grossly undermanned and the German divisions that were there were liberally sprinkled with osttruppen, conscript soldiers from the conquered countries in eastern Europe. These troops were hardly top soldiers and most of them surrendered ASAP. In addition, the German troops in Normandy spent more time constructing beach obstacles than they did training. The 6th Parachute Division were the best German troops in Normandy and they were undermanned, short of equipment and without motorized transport.

Jim Klag said:

We Americans like to brag about piercing the Atlantikwall on D-Day, but in fairness it was grossly undermanned and the German divisions that were there were liberally sprinkled with osttruppen, conscript soldiers from the conquered countries in eastern Europe. These troops were hardly top soldiers and most of them surrendered ASAP. In addition, the German troops in Normandy spent more time constructing beach obstacles than they did training. The 6th Parachute Division were the best German troops in Normandy and they were undermanned, short of equipment and without motorized transport.

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don't mention the tanks

rittmeister said:

don't mention the tanks

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What tanks?

rittmeister said:

don't mention the tanks

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Which ones? The Americans had very few and Hitler wouldn't wake up (literally) to let the Germans use theirs.