Frontier Thesis...by Turner...

5fish

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The Frontier Thesis which was popular for much of the 20th century and made the historian Turner career... There not one good explanation of the thesis but it was held true for decades.

Turner's point of departure for the essay was that in the published report of the 1890 federal census, it was reported that the United States no longer had a discernible frontier--a line of demarcation dividing, as they said then, "civilization" from "savagery." This led the historian to muse upon the importance of the frontier in American history.

Snip...

The Frontier thesis was formulated 1893, when American historian Frederick Jackson Turner theorized that the availability of unsettled land throughout much of American history was the most important factor determining national development.

The Frontier thesis was formulated 1893, when American historian Frederick Jackson Turner theorized that the availability of unsettled land throughout much of American history was the most important factor determining national development. Frontier experiences and new opportunities forced old traditions to change, institutions to adapt and society to become more democratic as class distinctions collapsed. The result was a unique American society, distinct from the European societies from which it originated.


Snip... http://historyrfd.net/isern/103/turner.htm

The frontier thesis is the assertion that the American character, including such traits as democracy and materialism, derived from the frontier experience.
"The existence of an area of free land, its continuous recession, and the advance of American settlement, explain American development."



Snip...

The safety valve thesis is the assertion that the frontier, as a place of opportunity and escape, defused social discontent in America

"So long as free land exists, the opportunity for a competency exists, and economic power secures political power."


Snip...

Turner said that in the development of any frontier area, one phase of economic and social development followed another in distinct stages. This is the concept of successive frontiers.

"Stand at Cumberland Gap and watch the procession of civilization, marching single file--the buffalo following the trail to the salt springs, the Indian, the fur-trader and hunter, the cattle-raiser, the pioneer farmer--and the frontier has passed by. Stand at South Pass in the Rockies a century later and see the same procession with wider intervals between."


Snip... https://www.encyclopedia.com/histor...es-and-press-releases/frontier-thesis-turners

FRONTIER THESIS, TURNER'S. Frederick Jackson Turner's "The Significance of the Frontier in American History" is arguably one of the most influential interpretations of the American past ever espoused. Delivered in Chicago before two hundred historians at the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition, a celebration of the four hundredth anniversary of Columbus's discovery of America, Turner's thesis discounted the then-dominant "germ theory" of American history, which argued that American political and social character evolved directly from European antecedents. Turner instead contended that Europeans had been transformed by the settlement of North America, a process that produced a distinct American mentality and culture far different from European precedents. Turner outlined progressive stages of settlement, dominated by the taming of the frontier from exploration through urban development, all the while maintaining that the experience of westward movement across the American continent was responsible for creating the independence and resourcefulness that comprised the heart of American character. The Turner thesis became the dominant interpretation of American history for the next century, although after the early 1980s "new western historians," who rejected Turner's grand theory for its lack of racial inclusiveness and overly triumphant paradigm, emphasized a more inclusive approach to frontier history. Nonetheless, the Turner thesis remained a popular albeit widely debated assessment of American development.
 

5fish

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One of Turner's rivals .... our German friends will like this theory... @rittmeister and @Wehrkraftzersetzer


Germanic germ theory[edit]
The Frontier Thesis came about at a time when the Germanic germ theory of history was popular. Proponents of the germ theory believed that political habits are determined by innate racial attributes.[5] Americans inherited such traits as adaptability and self-reliance from the Germanic peoples of Europe. According to the theory, the Germanic race appeared and evolved in the ancient Teutonic forests, endowed with a great capacity for politics and government. Their germs were, directly and by way of England, carried to the New World where they were allowed to germinate in the North American forests. In so doing, the Anglo-Saxons and the Germanic people’s descendants, being exposed to a forest like their Teutonic ancestors, birthed the free political institutions that formed the foundation of American government.[6]

Historian and ethnologist Hubert Howe Bancroft articulated the latest iteration of the Germanic germ theory just three years before Turner’s paper in 1893. He argued that the “tide of intelligence” had always moved from east to west. According to Bancroft, the Germanic germs had spread across of all Western Europe by the Middle Ages and had reached their height. This Germanic intelligence was only halted by “civil and ecclesiastical restraints” and a lack of “free land.”[7] This was Bancroft’s explanation for the Dark Ages.

Turner’s theory of early American development, which relied on the frontier as a transformative force, starkly opposed the Bancroftian racial determinism.
Turner referred to the Germanic germ theory by name in his essay, claiming that “too exclusive attention has been paid by institutional students to the Germanic origins.”[8] Turner believed that historians should focus on the settlers’ struggle with the frontier as the catalyst for the creation of American character, not racial or hereditary traits.

Though Turner’s view would win over the Germanic germ theory’s version of Western history, the theory persisted for decades after Turner’s thesis enraptured the American Historical Association. In 1946, medieval historian Carl Stephenson published an extended article refuting the Germanic germ theory. Evidently, the belief that free political institutions of the United States spawned in ancient Germanic forests endured well into the 1940s.
[9
 

O' Be Joyful

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Some of my ancestors were "germ"-ans in the mid 1760's. Early "carriers", I reckon. ;)

Ünd they did come over, then down thru the Cumberland Gap, by way of the port of Philadelphia.

Btw, the Cumberland Gap has Be-utiful view.
 

5fish

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I want to point out the Frontier thesis helped lead us into the Spanish American war... (we need new frontiers)... Intellectual theory for American Imperialism...

Snip... https://www.pbs.org/crucible/tl2.html

In a discussion of the Spanish-American War and the birth of U.S. imperialism, Frederick Jackson Turner's thesis is significant because it connects two important forces of the 1890s. By articulating the end of the American frontier and calling for new frontier abroad, Turner laid the intellectual groundwork for a new kind of U.S. foreign policy—one that led the United Stated into Cuba, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, and Guam during the Spanish-American War

Snip... Turner argued...

The most articulate of this group was University of Wisconsin historian
Frederick Jackson Turner who argued that much of contemporary American life (including democracy) could be explained with his "frontier thesis." Writing in 1893 he warned that "the frontier has gone, and with its going has closed the first period of American history." Without the challenge of further frontiers, who knew what might become of American culture?

Snip... a cool photo of the USS Maine entering Cuban port.... You all know it blew itself up in a coal fire... no one blew it up... we started another war on false pretext... 21 days after this photo, it blew up...

1590011723627.png

Snip... Mahan words... My ship was named after Mahan... USS Mahan DDG-42

Whereas Frederick Jackson Turner talked of closure, Mahan clearly understood the beginnings of an America dominant in a new, dangerously opportunistic world. Writing in 1890, Turner's benchmark year, Mahan, too, identified the disappearance of the frontier as a milestone of American history, with large implications for its economic and political future. In a companion piece to The Influence of Sea Power, he closed the circle of Turner's frontier thesis and charted America's new course: "Whether they will or no, Americans must now begin to look outward."
 
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5fish

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the Cumberland Gap has Be-utiful view.
I hope this link goes to a video by the NPS about the Columbain Gap... the link does work... a good show!!!

At Cumberland Gap, the first great gateway to the west, follow the buffalo, the Native American, the longhunter, the pioneer... all traveled this route through the mountains into the wilderness of Kentucky. Modern day explorers and travelers stand in awe at this great gateway and the many miles of trails and scenic features found in the park.

 

5fish

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Teddy Roosevelt and Fred Turner were of the same mind about the west....

Snip... wiki...

A similarly race-based interpretation of Western history also occupied the intellectual sphere in the United States before Turner. The racial warfare theory was an emerging belief in the late nineteenth century advocated by Theodore Roosevelt in The Winning of the West. Though Roosevelt would later accept Turner’s historiography on the West, calling Turner’s work a correction or supplementation of his own, the two certainly contradict.[10]

Roosevelt was not entirely unfounded in saying that he and Turner agreed; both Turner and Roosevelt agreed that the frontier had shaped what would become distinctly American institutions and the mysterious entity they each called “national character.” They also agreed that studying the history of the West was necessary to face the challenges to democracy in the late 1890s.[11]

Turner and Roosevelt diverged on the exact aspect of frontier life that shaped the contemporary American. Roosevelt contended that the formation of the American character occurred not with early settlers struggling to survive while learning a foreign land, but “on the cutting edge of expansion” in the early battles with Native Americans in the New World. To Roosevelt, the journey westward was one of nonstop encounters with the “hostile races and cultures” of the New World, forcing the early colonists to defend themselves as they pressed forward. Each side, the Westerners and the native savages, struggled for mastery of the land through violence.[12]

Whereas Turner saw the development of American character occur just behind the frontier line, as the colonists tamed and tilled the land, Roosevelt saw it form in battles just beyond the frontier line. In the end, Turner’s view would win out among historians, which Roosevelt would accept.
 

O' Be Joyful

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I hope this link goes to a video by the NPS about the Columbain Gap... the link does work... a good show!!!

At Cumberland Gap, the first great gateway to the west, follow the buffalo, the Native American, the longhunter, the pioneer... all traveled this route through the mountains into the wilderness of Kentucky. Modern day explorers and travelers stand in awe at this great gateway and the many miles of trails and scenic features found in the park.

:)

I once stood behind that cannon and others up there. And, got chased off by a thunderstorm.
 

O' Be Joyful

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To Roosevelt, the journey westward was one of nonstop encounters with the “hostile races and cultures” of the New World, forcing the early colonists to defend themselves as they pressed forward. Each side, the Westerners and the native savages, struggled for mastery of the land through violence.[12]

It is best to remember that all of our idols have clay feet, and Theodore was no exception.

Been to Oyster Bay and his grave too.
 

5fish

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Been to Oyster Bay and his grave too.
No but I do want to go to Oyster Bay and his grave.... I am fame of Teddy's

I am going to try to up one you...

I have been to his Washington DC Teddy Roosevelt monument that no one not even the people in DC know where it is... It is on Roosevelt Island which is in the middle of the Potomac River and only accessible from the Virginia side of the river... It is a nice monument...

 

O' Be Joyful

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I am going to try to up one you...
Theodore Roosevelt's Island Memorial--Presidents: A Discover Our Shared Heritage Travel Itinerary
[/QUOTE]

Try again...been there and visited the secluded monument. It's in the middle of the Potomac, cain't remember the bridge, but as I recall it's the same one that takes you to Arlington cemetery but you have to take a right turn.



.
 

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The Germans has Auswanderung as an Ideological argument for colonialism... Emigration ... @rittmeister

Some Germans thought emigration to their colonies would solve the social problems cause by Industrialization

Trading houses... foundation of their colonialism...

These trading houses conducted themselves as successful Privatkolonisatoren [independent colonizers] and concluded treaties and land purchases in Africa and the Pacific with chiefs and or other tribal leaders. These early agreements with local entities later formed the basis for annexation treaties, diplomatic support and military protection by the German government.

This was the man... Friedrich Fabri ...

Link... https://web.viu.ca/davies/H479B.Imperialism.Nationalism/Fabri.German.imperialism.1879.htm

A representative German propagandist for imperialism in the 'seventies and 'eighties was Friedrich Fabri, who had seen long service as an inspector of the Barmen Rhine Mission in South West Africa. In a popularly written little book titled Does Germany Need Colonies? ("Bedarf Deutschland der Kolonien?") [1879], Fabri argued that Germany must have colonial markets, new areas for investment, and outlets for her surplus population.


My point in all this is Germany was looking for new frontiers for new challenges for their advancement...
 

Jim Klag

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His greatest sponsor was Theodore "don't call me Teddy" Roosevelt.

And thus, The Great White Fleet.
Actually Alfred Thayer Mahan was TR's muse. His theories led to the Big Stick shtick. He was already a naval officer in the Civil War and his magnum opus The Influence Of Sea Power Upon History was one of TR's touchstones.
 

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Actually Alfred Thayer Mahan was TR's muse. His theories led to the Big Stick shtick. He was already a naval officer in the Civil War and his magnum opus The Influence Of Sea Power Upon History was one of TR's touchstones.
Mahan's views were shaped by 17th-century conflicts between the Dutch Republic, England, France and Spain, and by the nineteenth-century naval wars between France and Great Britain. British naval superiority eventually defeated France, consistently preventing invasion and an effective blockade. Mahan emphasized that naval operations were chiefly to be won by decisive battles and blockades.[12] In the 19th-century the United States sought greater control over its seaborne commerce in order to protect its economic interests which relied heavily on exports bound mainly for Europe.

According to Peter Paret's Makers of Modern Strategy from Machiavelli to the Nuclear Age, Mahan's emphasis on sea power as the most important cause of Britain's rise to world power neglected diplomacy and land arms. Furthermore, theories of sea power do not explain the rise of land empires, such as Bismarck's Germany or the Russian Empire.[13]


Snip... Japan wanting a knockout punch... missed placed....

The Influence of Seapower Upon History, 1660–1783 was translated into Japanese[23] and was used as a textbook in the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN). That usage strongly affected the IJN's plan to end Russian naval expansion in the Far East, which culminated in the Russo-Japanese War (1904–1905).[24] It has been argued that the IJN's pursuit of the "decisive battle" contributed to Imperial Japan's defeat in World War II,[25][26] because the development of the submarine and the aircraft carrier, combined with advances in technology, largely rendered obsolete the doctrine of the decisive battle between fleets.[27] Nevertheless, the IJN did not adhere strictly to Mahanian doctrine because its forces were often tactically divided, particularly during the attack on Pearl Harbor and the Battle of Midway.

Snip... German's want a knockout punch... @rittmeister was Tirpitz mislead? If you look at the battle of the Jutland the German navy bested the Brits...

Mahan's name became a household word in the German navy after Kaiser Wilhelm II ordered his officers to read Mahan, and Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz (1849–1930) used Mahan's reputation to finance a powerful surface fleet.[18] Tirpitz, an intense navalist who believed ardently in Mahan's dictum that whatever power rules the sea also ruled the world, had The Influence of Sea Power Upon History translated into German in 1898 and had 8,000 copies distributed for free as a way of pressuring the Reichstag to vote for the First Navy Bill.[19]

Tirpitz used Mahan not only as a way of winning over German public opinion but also as a guide to strategic thinking.[20] Before 1914, Tirpitz completely rejected commerce raiding as a strategy and instead embraced Mahan's ideal of a decisive battle of annihilation between two fleets as the way to win command of the seas.[19] Tirpitz always planned for the German High Seas Fleet to win the Entscheidungsschlacht (decisive battle) against the British Royal Navy somewhere in "the waters between Helgoland and the Thames", a strategy he based on his reading of The Influence of Sea Power Upon History.
[
 

rittmeister

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German's want a knockout punch... @rittmeister was Tirpitz mislead? If you look at the battle of the Jutland the German navy bested the Brits...
that's a mood question. even if we could (in a skagerrakschlacht way) manage to sink all of their and our dreadnoughts their outdated ships would have minemeated ours. we would have needed to sink all their dreadnoughts and keep some of ours.

no way that's possible - they also built them faster than we did.

the only way to sustain naval warfare (in either world war) would have been using submarines (and fast attack boats) extensively.
 

5fish

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that's a mood question. even if we could (in a skagerrakschlacht way) manage to sink all of their and our dreadnoughts their outdated ships would have minemeated ours. we would have needed to sink all their dreadnoughts and keep some of ours.
There are the stats...

The total loss of life on both sides was 9,823 personnel: the British losses numbered 6,784 and the German 3,039.[186] Counted among the British losses were two members of the Royal Australian Navy and one member of the Royal Canadian Navy. Six Australian nationals serving in the Royal Navy were also killed.[187]

British[edit]
113,300 tons sunk:[1]

German[edit]
62,300 tons sunk:[1]


Snip Brits...

The official British Admiralty examination of the Grand Fleet's performance recognised two main problems:

British armour-piercing shells exploded outside the German armour rather than penetrating and exploding within.
As a result, some German ships with only 8 in (20 cm)-thick armour survived hits from 15-inch (38 cm) projectiles. Had these shells penetrated the armour and then exploded, German losses would probably have been far greater.

Communication between ships and the British commander-in-chief were comparatively poor. For most of the battle, Jellicoe had no idea where the German ships were, even though British ships were in contact. They failed to report enemy positions, contrary to the Grand Fleet's Battle Plan. Some of the most important signalling was carried out solely by flag instead of wireless or using redundant methods to ensure communications—a questionable procedure, given the mixture of haze and smoke that obscured the battlefield, and a foreshadowing of similar failures by habit-bound and conservatively minded professional officers of rank to take advantage of new technology in World War II.


Snip... Germans shot better...

German ships were considered to have been quicker in determining the correct range to targets, thus obtaining an early advantage. The British used a 'bracket system', whereby a salvo was fired at the best-guess range and, depending where it landed, the range was progressively corrected up or down until successive shots were landing in front of and behind the enemy. The Germans used a 'ladder system', whereby an initial volley of three shots at different ranges was used, with the centre shot at the best-guess range. The ladder system allowed the gunners to get ranging information from the three shots more quickly than the bracket system, which required waiting between shots to see how the last had landed. British ships adopted the German system.[1
 

rittmeister

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There are the stats...
all dreadnoughts not just those sunk in the skagerrakschlacht (the winner* is to name it, right?). and the attrition rate would not have been sustainable.

---

* the brits claim a tactical victory which is true (see above) but if they thought they outright won that battle they'd say so.
 

5fish

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skagerrakschlacht
The English speaking world calls it, the Battle of Jutland.... Do not winners get to name the battles...??? Is there an English translation for the word "skagerrakschlacht"
 
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